AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

[Jijifli]

(darkside, parry based tank)

Fun fact. WAR was meant to be a parry based tank, showing it today with a 100% parry chance cooldown.

[Lemuria]

Fun fact. WAR was meant to be a parry based tank

And yet is incapable of using Keen Flurry? Hmm, I often wonder why SE messed up the cross-class skills so badly.

In my opinion, two of the three classes were okay at launch. That's to say Dark Knight and Astrologian. Perfectly capable in their own roles, since Astro only really feels the pinch at higher levels and Dark Knight never really had any breaking issues. Machinist, on the other hand, was a mess. The reload mechanic feels horribly clunky, even with the recent update, and the slow DPS makes it an agonizing job to level up.

In every party I've played, the MCH always falls behind in DPS and not by a small degree either. Having played the job, it doesn't flow as nicely as other classes, and each shot feels almost forced rather than natural. Even comparing MCH damage to its closest rival, the Bard, it doesn't seem to match up equally. Still, this is just my own personal opinion.

I'm always polite to my fellow teammates regardless of class, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't noticed considerably longer dungeons when Machinists are in the group.

[jomoru]

IS there some sort of hard core only server that people who post these sorts of threads live on? Or do you think crazy hyperbole is the only way to speak. I was underwhelmed by AST and Mch at launch but " failure" what the hell?

[FoxyAreku]

Maybe they should add a support role to groups

At any rate better underpowered than overpowered I say.
WoW death knight anyone?

I would honestly like it if Bards and Machinists were treated like this at least as far as duty finder goes. No changes in their gameplay, and you can ditch the role in 4 man dungeons, but doing 8 man content without a bard or machinist is kinda lame.

[Velhart]

You might want to stop trying to dismiss people who are reacting as expected to bad implementation. There's several threads on the DPS forums that talk about this in detail, even with the trolls that will spew crap like "git gud".

I have yet to see the argument where it is more viable for BRD/MCH to run around needlessly in a battlefield. People before 3.0 complained (yes this was a thing) that they wanted a more non-support stance to contribute DPS almost to the level of dedicated DPS. SE pretty much gave that, but they can't just give it to you while still having the freedom to move around. There has to be a higher skill cap to compensate for it. Thus, you have a casting stance now. If you want the casting stance out, you have to take the DPS boost away. You can say there are alternative ways, but ultimately it ends up sacrificing DPS that people on the ranged side have been asking for. More freedom of movement means less DPS.

If you don't care about pushing DPS, then by all means. You also have the right to not like it, but GB/WM makes sense and works well in it's implementation. BRD has some minor issues that do need adjusting, but its nothing considered broken or even a real big deal.

This does not work in current party compositions. The way it is right now, Bards and MCH compete against each other for a spot (when before it was unanimously bard). What they need to do is divestize the two a little bit. The fact they both have GB and WM which are functionally the same skills do not help in this regard.

On a side note, melee dps also needs to take a look. The way it currently stands, a DRG is practically garunteed a spot if you're looking for optimal set ups. Battle litany is too good to pass, arguably the strongest single target dps and boosts BRD/MCH DPS (the two also being a mandatory slot for cutting edge progression)What they need to do is divestize the two a little bit. The fact they both have GB and WM which are functionally the same skills do not help in this regard. looking for optimal set ups. Battle litany is too good to pass, arguably the strongest single target dps and boosts BRD/MCH DPS (the two also being a mandatory slot for cutting edge progression)

This is true. From playing both MCH and BRD, it definitely feels like the idea originated for MCH and then tacked onto BRD. I think both having the stance is fine, but how they take advantage of it is could of what set them apart.

[Trixxy]

I'll just blame the over-abundance of bad players on this game which give the new jobs such a bad image.
AST's who couldn't deal with the pre-buff potency numbers.
DRK's that suck at managing their MP / Cooldowns / who are generally bad at tanking.
MCH's that simply deal poor dps due to not wanting to get involved with the job they chose to play.

There's one thing all three have in common with the old jobs though;
Player skill making a much larger difference than the job itself.

[Duelle]

I have yet to see the argument where it is more viable for BRD/MCH to run around needlessly in a battlefield.

It's not about whether it's viable or not. It's about the feel of the gameplay and how it's been for 51 levels. Something as seemingly small as not being able to set up DoTs while running into position (something I've done while leveling both BRD and MCH) hampers my enjoyment of the job. The fact I'm waiting on cast bars while not being an actual caster job doesn't help.

This said, I don't have a problem with the changes on a concept level (I had a hunter in WoW during the transition from Mana as its resource to Focus, so I've been there already). My problem is where they were implemented, as it reeks of a shortcut taken by the developers. This is further aggravated by how clear WM is a copy-paste mechanic from MCH, and that's made worse by the knowledge MCH was designed with Gauss Barrel in mind, while BRD was not designed around WM.

People before 3.0 complained (yes this was a thing) that they wanted a more non-support stance to contribute DPS almost to the level of dedicated DPS. SE pretty much gave that, but they can't just give it to you while still having the freedom to move around.

I'll stop you right there because this is patently false. What people wanted was more DPS, and what they got was a stance tossed in as an attempted fix-all at lv52 that only kept BRD and MCH performing at exactly the same discrepancy to pure DPS as BRD had during ARR (meaning physical ranged DPS is exactly where it was relative to "pure" DPS jobs). There was no boost in DPS compared to other jobs; BRD (and MCH) is at exactly the same place it was before but is now required to use WM to be there.

You also have the right to not like it, but GB/WM makes sense and works well in it's implementation.

Proper implementation, specially in the case of BRD, would have been them redesigning the abilities with cast times where appropriate instead of giving everything a cast time. Perhaps adding a cooldown that lets cast bars fill while moving, or some interaction between the shots beyond River of Blood and Straighter Shot procs.

A redesign from the ground up means the only people having to adjust are the people who leveling BRD and played it all through ARR, whereas right now you have people who pick up archer and are essentially bait-and-switched at lv52. "You wanted instant casts and mobility. Hah hah fooled you, now you're a caster 52 levels into the job."

There's no opting out of WM because the BRD damage model is tuned around it, so it's not even a matter of wanting to push DPS. You HAVE to use it to be worthwhile at level cap.

[AsahinaMyLove]

a big fail to me is mechanic class >.>

I played it till lv34 and lost interesst completly.

pretty boring skill animations(if there are any) - like you was in option and had turn off graphic animations
a copycat of archer/bard
low damage output
very silly battle pose
flintlock pistols as weapons (the game is at magic and high technology age and we get such old weapons =.= )

[Eul]

No offense, but Living Dead is really... pointless IMO. Yes with WHM's Benediction, the DRK will alive again. But what about the other healer?

[Asierid]

I think you're ignorant and clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Considering he isn't wrong, that would be you, kind sir.

A PLD or a WAR would take less damage, regardless. You have one more defensive that is based off of magic damage (Better hope there's more than just Alex bosses coming down the pipe in terms of magic damage), and not even that great to begin with. Vengence/Thrill/IB/Foresight reduces all damage regardless. Sentinel/Rampart/Imp. Conv do the same, while only three abilities, are more powerful (plus Hallowed). This doesn't even take into account the blocking of PLD or parry of DRK/WAR, because DRK is gud at majek rite?

Oh parry? Ok. Raw Intuition. And PLD takes the passive mitigation medal with blocks/block abilities. You do better AoE then them though, there is that one thing. You can AoE stuff, kudos there too.

Can it tank things? Sure it can...but it's nothing that a PLD/WAR couldn't do better.