PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Iagainsti]

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior.

Whichever tank you choose, take gladiator to 22 for provoke, for true end game to 34 for awareness

[Synestra]

If you like situational combos instead of fixed rotations, and like to manage your resources and CDs, or want a mix of damage mitigation and higher DPS, look no further than DRK.

Now that DRK mana "bug" has been fixed it actually took away that resource management, burn some MP at the beginning then siphon spam coupled with either BW or BP untill you have mana again and burn it again(unless you need to save it for CD's)and thats pretty much it. TP requires more management now than mana for DRK's as they have no real TP regen skill.

Its still pretty fun job thanks to all those oGCD skills it has, so i will get it maxed soon so i can swap between PLD and DRK depending on fight.

[Brian_]

snip

Did you seriously just compare PLD vs. WAR / DRK to BRD / MCH vs. dedicated DPS classes?

BRD and MCH bring unique and necessary support because that's what they are -- a support DPS class. If they reclassify PLD as a support tank role and gave PLD unique, irreplaceable and mandatory raid support at the cost of a marginal amount of individual DPS, that would be fine, too. That would be an actual trade-off rather than the current non-trade-off.

As for WARs being independent, anyone you ask will say the same thing. They are by far the most well rounded and complete tank. Are you really going to argue this point?

If PLDs are to push the type of DPS that people assume they're pushing, it's in Sword Oath. All tanks have the same effective healing returns in DPS stance.

Top progression groups made those changes because it was higher overall raid DPS with no meaningful losses. Healing was still a non-issue despite dropping PLDs, SCHs were playing exactly the same despite DRK MT, and because they were getting the int debuff from DRK, MNK was irrelevant compared to the additional DPS and utility NIN brings. That comp was strictly better in balance terms. In other words, there was a real imbalance. Results speak for themselves. I guess since those results and facts don't agree with you, we should ignore them.

If you're going to make the argument that balance doesn't matter at a lower level, then balance changes shouldn't effect you either. After all, your static can just adjust. It's curious that you still fight tooth and claw against the obvious issues PLD has.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Yes, I compared the support-defensive tank to the other tanks with the support-DPS classes to the other "dedicated" DPS classes.

Support classes are an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS classes and are by no means necessary for any fight. Their buffs help but are by no means necessary. Healers should never need ballad unless people keep dying and EVERY DPS class has Invigorate. You can 100% clear all content without BRD/MCH. Also ALL classes bring at least 2 raid-wide beneficial support abilities. Battle Litany, Trick Attack and Mantra say hi. Apocastasis, Eye 4 Eye and Resurrection also say hi.

Guess what? Should we call DRG "independent"? It doesn't need another class to buff its damage at all. Same is for MNK and NIN. If you want to call WAR "independent" because it brings its own slashing debuff, I'll be as stubborn and stupid and say PLD is independent because it doesn't need a healer to cast Stoneskin and Protect. PLD is also independent because it doesn't need another class to provide RoH.

Also I don't get why everyone is getting their panties in a twist, WAR ALWAYS had the slashing debuff... Someone had to have it. PLD never had it. It's not like Heavensward came out and removed the slashing from PLD and gave it to WAR. It added another class (DRK) that needs it but doesn't have it. Out 4 classes, 2 provide the slashing debuff. I do not see it as imbalance. What do you want? Have PLD and DRK also provide the slashing debuff? PLD and DRK already have their "niche" in physical and magical fights, twelve forbid WAR has its own "thing"? I say "just deal with it".

In truth, no class is "independent". ALL three tanks WILL die without a healer. All DPS classes cannot do their max DPS without a tank. Tanks and healers will not meet enrage timers without DPS. No one is truly independent. 1 buff doesn't make a class superior to the rest.

As I said in my post, stop comparing your average static to world first groups that push every inch of DPS to meet checks they aren't supposed to. Also as I said, those groups did not try WAR MT and PLD OT which I assure you are more total raid DPS than DRK MT WAR OT. They dropped MNK which had the INT down for the NIN which brought Trick Attack and is already higher DPS than MNK. They try to squeeze every point of raid DPS because they are doing the content they are vastly undergeared for. You probably will have 5 to 10 ilvs higher on average on your first clear than they were.

I will not go in circles and repeat points that the last 27 pages have been full of, as long as PLDs have shields, easier healing and CDs, and HG, they never should and never will do the DPS of the other tanks. There is no imbalance in this. #Dealwithit.

[Valkyrie-Amber]

... hallowed ground is only thing that makes pld better than dark in defense. any healer class will have same difficulty healing a dark they they would have healing a pld. why I never complained about war is cause they are harder to heal so they are balanced really.

The issue is dark and pld dps difference yet they have basically same cds and no on pld parry proc rate is super lower cause of shield. so darks parry more.

my solution remove plds Shelton and give us another aoe like the one ilbrand uses in cut scene crescent slash or something. course the radious would be super close and done within one mobs distance around you skipping the rear open part or the radius. why should plds get a move like this? circle of scorn cant be used at will like warriors over power its ogcd. even if you kept potency 100 like cos would still add a few numbers making balance.

Shelton is such a gimmick if you play at say 40ms and under then you can time it right to block a buster but 150ms+ you will most likely block auto attack and take buster hit so make sure to save gcds prior to relying on Shelton.

[CarnivalNights]

This is the first MMO I've played where there's expectations for a tank to deal high DPS. It's wacky. Other MMOs have multi-specializations that allow a different set of skills for one class that wants to tank/DPS/heal. This one? Nah, you output DPs while being a tank. It's wacky. It's anarchy.

[Brian_]

snip

Some imbalances translate across all levels of play. The reason is because some imbalances scale down proportionately with skill.

When you look at imbalances in fighting games, RTS games, and, yes, other MMORPGs, you will see a lot of situations where an imbalance at the highest level translates to lower level play.

Like I said earlier, an exceptionally skilled DRK will output exceptional DPS and sufficient survivability while a good DRK will output good DPS and sufficient survivability. An exceptionally skilled PLD will output exceptional DPS and sufficient survivability while a good PLD will also scale down proportionately. Outside of cases where there is a real difference in learning curve that gates access to differing levels of skill, this is generally true. A good PLD is not going to magically out DPS a good DRK.

So when you look at lesser statics, the same issues exist, just on a different scale. Gear helps make up for that gap in player skill but it doesn't make up for that gap in job balance unless one class scales better with gear than another. Eventually, the gear will be enough to carry players past content but that still says nothing of job balance. We'll just be having this same discussion the next raid cycle if the meta doesn't change. Regardless of which class is screwed the next cycle, shouldn't the goal be to balance so that no class is screwed?

Since ASTs are in a similar position but seemingly without this strange territorial defensiveness from their co-healers, let's look at their situation. Everyone with any ounce of sense will say that while AST can work, there are some obvious issues with balance. On the other hand, people deny clear facts and truth when judging PLD and it's puzzling.

Why this keeps going in circles is because the few people against helping out PLD fail to address the key issues in a meaningful way.

Given equal terms, PLD DPS will always be lower than DRK and WAR.

Given equal terms, PLD mitigation and survivability will not always be higher than DRK and WAR.

The current tanking meta is to meet an eHP threshold and then go full DPS thereafter. So, even if PLD has a situational eHP advantage, it's irrelevant because it's above the eHP threshold. As seen in live environments, it's not like the other tanks require drastically different healing while bringing more DPS.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

First of all, PLD is no effing way anywhere near where AST is. AST is screwed hard with a very thorny cactus.

The problem is you are so fixated on PLD's DPS as a MT. We have three tanks, if PLD maintained the same DPS as the other two tanks while keeping its mitigation and safety as is, PLD will simply be the only MT of choice. DRK will be in AST's spot since WAR is the winner OT since everyone gets a hard on at night over WAR's slashing debuff and infinite TP.

If PLD's eHP advantage is "irrelevant" in any single fight, have the PLD OT, you lose what? 70 DPS compared to WAR? WAR MT gains 150~300 DPS over PLD MT. Overall Raid DPS increase of 80~230 DPS. Problem solved. WAR MT / PLD OT even has a higher raid DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT, Just sayin'.

PLD is nowhere near a bad spot. We have three tanks, we have to put them in order, EACH has to shine in a different aspect. If one shines somewhere, the other two will be sub-optimal to it. So the other two need to shine elsewhere, making the one that shined in a different place be sub-optimal in the first scenario. As long as there is a "best", there will be a "worst". You have to deal with it. That is how balance works. If what you are asking for is to have all tanks mitigate the same and do the same DPS, then what you are asking for is homogenization, not balance.

In ANY scanario (Physical, magical or mixed), PLD's mitigation is more-or-less on-par to WAR.

In EVERY scanario, WAR receives less effective healing than PLD.

PLD is NOT shafted in that it takes high magical damage. It mitigates magical damage JUST FINE. Same as WAR.

There are two scenarios where one of the two other tanks will do better, mitigation wise, than PLD:

1- Magical environment: DRK has more options and can increase its eHP at least 15% more than PLD could with the same CD structure. This is the only scenario DRK is better than PLD or WAR. PLD and WAR are not lacking in this environment, DRK is just "better". Magical fights existed in 2.x and did not prevent PLDs from MTing, look at T2, Leviathan ex and Ramuh ex (this one ignores all of PLD's CDs and Shield Oath).

2- Frequent tank busters (Less than 50s frequency): WAR, with its Inner Beast alone, will out-mitigate either PLD or DRK. But ANY combination of tanks can overcome this with tank swapping. So far frequent tank busters have been in T2, T5, T6 and Titan Ex. PLD successfully solo tanked all of these. WAR is just "better" at solo tanking them.

So in any scenario other than the two above, you should have a PLD MT because it plainly "works" better. In any scenario where another tank is better than PLD, just step down from your high horse and accept the inferior OT spot. Problem solved. Your DPS is a non-issue. You don't have to change to DRK, you won't get kicked out of your group.

This is very balanced. It is actually as balanced as it can get. Quality of life changes are acceptable like maybe TP fixes for non-WAR tanks. But NOTHING needs to be done about their main functions as MT or OT mitigation or DPS wise.

[Reynhart]

The problem is you are so fixated on PLD's DPS as a MT.

The problem is that this WHOLE community is fixated on DPS.

WAR MT / PLD OT even has a higher raid DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT, Just sayin'.

I really doubt that, now that WAR got a really strong offensive stance and that Determination doesn't affect auto-attacks.

We have three tanks, we have to put them in order, EACH has to shine in a different aspect.

The problem is that doesn't "shine" anywhere. At best, it's a feeble light in mitigation over the other two tanks.

Make something matters other than pure own DPS and mitigation, that's where you can make other tanks shine.

[Phoenicia]

I really doubt that, now that WAR got a really strong offensive stance and that Determination doesn't affect auto-attacks.

Determination STILL affects Auto-attacks. It affects them less.

PLD in Sword Oath does roughly 70 DPS less than WAR in Deliverance provided it gets TP and Slashing debuff. PLD OT doing 70 less DPS than WAR but WAR MT doing 150~300 DPS more than PLD MT is higher DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT.

PLD "shines" as the single safest tank. I say this for the hundredth time! (well not really, but yeah). Safety is what makes PLD better than WAR. Both tanks mitigate the same damage on busters, PLD does it far more safely.

This game only has three metrics for tanks: DPS, Mitigation, Utility. PLD is already at the top in two of them.