PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Reynhart]

War/War = No Reprisal / No Halone / No Delirum
Pld/Pld = No slashing / No reprisal / No Path / No Eye / No Delirum
Drk/Drk = No Slashing / No Path / No Eye / No Halone

I completed your list. And with a WAR, you have Storm's path which is a better Reprisal (Even if both stacks)

As for NIN, Dancing Edge is a DPS loss for them, so a WAR helps NIN more than a PLD or a DRK.
Delirum is a bit strange since it's only useful on magical attacks and only if you have no monk.

Yes, you have Hallowed Ground, but it's not something you'd use all the time, and Holmgang is not that weaker most of the time, especially since WAR can burst heal a lot of HP right after that.

Living Dead, on the other hand...

[Phoenicia]

No, only making it faster.

Faster is more efficient, more efficient is always better. As long as you don't wipe and redo the whole thing, faster is ALWAYS better.

Yes, maybe. So what ? Didn't it make the setup viable ? Or uninteresting ?

Again, it depends on the content. With a proper orb management, A4 is doable with a single tank, to be clear much faster with the additionnal DPS

Yet the game let them try this. And it worked. Back in the days, solo tank Ramuh EX was also an effective strategy since Lustrate wasn't reduce by the healing debuff.

Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I'm saying it's not how it is designed to be. Also since you speak of "not faster but better", Solo tank Shiva ex risked tank deaths and wiping far more than the far easier and safer but 8-seconds slower two tank strategy.

The problem is that WAR can pop Inner Beast more often than PLD can pop any cooldown. So, apart from Hallowed Ground, whatever cooldown a PLD can use, WAR can use a better combination. While still keeping Holmgang as an "oh,shit" button.

Indeed, I didn't count Infuriate, thanks for going my way. The problem with Inner Beast is that it can easily heal for more that 20% of any healing abilities.
Lustrate is 600, Tetragrammaton is 700. Even with 20% increase, it would pale in comparison to a native healing on top of the 300 potency of Inner Beast.
And let's not count if the WAR is targeted by Clemency during Convalescence...

WAR self-healing may not be "THE" advantage, but it easily put its higher than PLD in terms of eHP.

Again, this would matter if mitigated damage mattered. But since most tank busters are at least 1 minute apart, it's irrelevant. Any IB used outside of tank busters is "waste of DPS" and reduces the damage of three auto-attacks at most. Also do not forget that potencies on spells are higher than physical skills because of weapon damage on magical weapons. Inner Beast heal is weaker than Physic unless you crit while zerked. There is a reason why a lot of tank analysis initially ignore IB's heal and add it near the end as a layer to make up for effective healing lost.

Also, this is very important, due to its nature, IB will be used BEFORE you take the damage, resulting in its heal being an over heal. And since any good WAR CD rotation will incorporate Infuriate to mitigate more instead of heal more, double IB on a single buster is a rare thing.

Also let's not bring this out of context. It is not so white and black. People are complaining about WAR's DPS while tanking. Every IB WAR used is a FC WAR did not use. Leading to less MT DPS. Every time WAR flips to Defiance for Equilibrium or IB heal is at least 10s NOT in Deliverance AND 1 minute without the bonus TP that people seem to envy WAR so bad for. Every 200 TP gained by Equilibrium is a self heal WAR did not use. It is not like WAR is a power house with infinite TP and endless self-healing. In most fights, a WAR focused on defense gives up a lot of its DPS to be "as good as PLD", not better.

Again, WAR's self healing is there to make up for the lack of the passive mitigation of the shield and less overall effective healing received. It's not like WAR depends less on healers because it can self-sustain. Also the higher the damage WAR takes, the less relevant those heals are compared to pure damage mitigated.

You mean like Sheltron and Bulwark, were you don't blocks if mobs are behind or too far on your flank ? Please...

Sheltron and Bulwark don't get you hit for more (crits) if you don't block. Hence they are "press-and-forget".

If mobs get to your flank, you wouldn't even parry their attack, so why do you pop Raw Intuition for mitigation anyway ? Pop Vengeance, or Inner Beast (This, again...) or even Bloodbath with an overpower spamfest, and you'll keep plenty of HP.

Again, RI gets you hit for a crit if you're not careful. Vengeance is on a longer CD, and if a WAR pops IB in AoE it's a massive DPS loss, which, again, is what this whole thread is crying about, DPS. Also let's not pretend you don't need to move to avoid telegraphed attacks which make you prone to flank hits.

The problem with your math is you sound like it's something special for a WAR. It's its basic gameplay, so it will always make up for this discrepancy.
You can't say a PLD is "good" only because it uses its cooldown..

It is a special thing that WAR increases its max HP by as much as PLD and DRK increase their own eHP but not its received healing by the same amount. Hence PLD and DRK receive better effective healing. The basic gameplay of WAR is that it requires more input from someone to make up for a discrepancy that the other tanks don't have. As a reward, WAR can mitigate slightly better.

If it wasn't a "problem", WAR would've already been the MT of choice since it is on equal terms of mitigation with PLD. But it isn't the MT of choice. And don't give me any of that bull of WAR being a far better OT. Nothing a WAR OT does that it can't do as MT as opposed to PLD which can cast freely from the OT spot. Also we'd see WAR/WAR runs being THE thing. But it is a fact that PLD or DRK are almost always in the MT spot while WAR is stuck in the OT spot. If you can't see why PLD or DRK take that spot over WAR, you are missing the whole point of safety.

Again, the gap is so thin between WAR and PLD that healers can output the same DPS with either tank.

The gap is there. Every tank analysis HAS to acknowledge this gap. Healers WILL notice that they need to do more to heal WAR. Self-healing also increases over-healing issues. Healers will panic more with a WAR tank. WAR will almost always have the healer drop cleric stance at least 1 GCD earlier than they would with a PLD.

For WAR to match PLD's mitigation, it gives up a lot of its DPS. But since this is a cry-about-DPS thread, the logic behind WAR superiority is flawed.

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

Nor do you lose anything by not having a WAR. If you want to ignore the safety net of those two tanks over WAR and the damage specific debuffs. Slashing Debuff is not unique to WAR. NIN gains about 40~70 DPS for not using DE. Why is losing Storm Path any worse than losing RoH on a physical fight or Delirium in a magical one? Let's not forget that any good WAR wouldn't keep Storm Path up 100% of the time on any fight. WAR loses 30~50 DPS by substituting every Butcher's Block with Storm Path.

Also double classes hit the LB fill time hard. Making hard fights that much harder.
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All that said and done, don't get me wrong. I do not think WAR is "weaker" than the other tanks. On the contrary, I think it is the strongest of the three. But it is the least safe and safety is a thing. WAR, however, isn't superior to the other two. Each of the three tanks has a niche it fulfills very well. PLD wouldn't even complain if DRK wasn't added and they felt that their spot as the god-sent MT of choice is threatened.

You can't just ignore everything a class does and bring it down to DPS, because if we did that, every group will be 2 WARs, 4 DRGs and 2 SCHs. With almost 80% uptime on Battle Litany and WAR's keeping the slashing debuff going even when one of them is triple cleaving, the DPS is massive.

[Phrost]

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior. I'm very experienced in tanking in MMO's, I would like to know which is more efficient and/or fun subjectively in end-game content.

From the looks of the direction of this thread, Warrior looks to be the best choice but I'd still like some input before I decide! Thanks.

[TouchandFeel]

@Phrost

Try each one and see which you like best, in the end that is what should really matter.
Class/Job balance will change as will what the current end game content is and who it may favor.

[Phoebus]

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior. I'm very experienced in tanking in MMO's, I would like to know which is more efficient and/or fun subjectively in end-game content.

From the looks of the direction of this thread, Warrior looks to be the best choice but I'd still like some input before I decide! Thanks.

And this is the core of what is wrong with pld. We all play this game to have fun, and when compared to the other two it isn't.

DpSing respectably while tanking is fun. Being the worst at this, while not even being the best at what pld is designed for is not.

It's fine for trade-offs between the classes, but let's stop pretending the current trade-offs are balanced.

[Phoenicia]

Hi guys, I am a new player and I didn't want to create a new thread for this, so I just want to ask before I level Gladiator 30 / Conj to 15 for Paladin, if I should consider stopping at 17 here with Gladiator and getting Marauder to 30 for Warrior. I'm very experienced in tanking in MMO's, I would like to know which is more efficient and/or fun subjectively in end-game content.

From the looks of the direction of this thread, Warrior looks to be the best choice but I'd still like some input before I decide! Thanks.

Pick the tank with the play-style or aesthetic you like the most.

SE has a good history of balancing classes and if content shafts one class, that class will be buffed or content that suits it will be made.

Since you are already leveling Gladiator, get it to 34 for Awareness (optimal) or at least 22 for Provoke (Mandatory, can't stress this enough).

Simple differences between the three tanks:

Paladin: Your run-in-the-mill simple, straightforward and mitigate-all tank. Has the best overall defenses and is designed around having higher defensive and supportive abilities at the cost of being the lowest DPS. PLD has no additional resources to manage and is considered the "easiest" to play. Large gap between its Main tank and off tank DPS. PLD is the preferred MT for any physical damage heavy encounter.

If you like to have simplified rotations where you can focus more on mechanics and/or the ability to cast situational heals and shields on self or allies, PLD is the tank for you.

Warrior: Your "offensive tank" and can be considered the hardest to mitigate with mechanically. It is not lacking in any department and has the best self-healing but it exists to offset slightly weaker received overall healing. WAR has a healthy mix of increasing its max HP and straight damage intake reduction. WAR will show you big numbers and fat HP. WAR does the most DPS between the three tanks. Small gap between its MT and OT DPS, specially if you "stance dance". WAR has "Wrath" and "Abandon" as an additional scarce resource which they utilize for additional mitigation and/or DPS. WAR is preferred as OT but can do very well as MT under any environment.

If you like to stance dance and count your stacked buffs based on situation, and/or you like to dish out a lot of damage while taking as much in return (you like big numbers), you can't go wrong with WAR.

Dark Knight: Considered by many to be the "magic tank". DRK has a slight advantage in magical environments due to a potent and short CD that reduces magic damage, but kind of lacking in physical damage mitigation. Because of that, DRK is the preferred MT of any magical damage heavy encounter. DRK does good DPS and is hardly behind WAR. Has the smallest gap between its MT and OT DPS. DRK relies heavily on its MP to increase its DPS and boost two of its defensive CDs. DRK has the least utility options of the three tanks. DRK has glaring TP issues.

If you like situational combos instead of fixed rotations, and like to manage your resources and CDs, or want a mix of damage mitigation and higher DPS, look no further than DRK.

EDIT: A lot of content is very DRK friendly since it is the newest tank. But this will probably change in the future. /edit

Personally I think DRK and WAR are more "technical" while PLD is simplified. All three tanks are very good.

[Phrost]

Great, thanks!

Unfortunately I cannot give DRK a try until I complete the main story at lv 50. I've enjoyed the game so much that I picked up Heavensward so I'll have it waiting when I do.

I'll have to try them both out it seems.

It's also nice to know that this company does well at balancing, that's reassuring.

I'll most likely start with Paladin since you mentioned the skills Gladiator has that are useful for tanking.

[Noira]

PLD is the safer route when you want to LEARN the basics of tanking in THIS game. (then if you like pld you can actually take it further than just the basics).

War is the less safe route as it forces you to learn timing of cooldowns and inner beast for big hits.

THat said either or is a good choice . Though PLD is more mandatory for awareness (specially on war when you use raw intution).

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Dancing Edge is a DPS loss for them, so a WAR helps NIN more than a PLD or a DRK.

Right but besides the moar dps thing?

My point is: There's always going to be an optimal setup for dps, damage mitigation etc. (and it may include war in it) but there are also a ton of viable setups that get the job done just as well. Hell, I was doing some Alex Savage 1 research today and I saw a clear vid on youtube with Paladin/Dark Whm/Sch Mnk/Drg/Brd/Blm. No warrior/ninja for the slashing so non-optimal dps. If that's not proof enough that the other classes and team compositions aren't leagues behind the almighty warrior setup then idk what is!

So, in closing, Paladin doesn't need any major tweaks IMO but some QoL adjustments? Sure—why not?

Can we end this thread now? lolololol jk MOAR FLAME I LOVE READING THE FORUMS.

[Phoebus]

Great, thanks!

Unfortunately I cannot give DRK a try until I complete the main story at lv 50. I've enjoyed the game so much that I picked up Heavensward so I'll have it waiting when I do.

I'll have to try them both out it seems.

It's also nice to know that this company does well at balancing, that's reassuring.

I'll most likely start with Paladin since you mentioned the skills Gladiator has that are useful for tanking.

30 to 40 can be rough since you dont get your tank stance till 40, but all the dps got good abilities. Just stick with it. It gets better lol.