PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[NFaelivrin]

Ok, it's nice to go towards the "right" end, but you can't dismiss Sheltron while still saying that Raw Intuition is good, since they have the same requirement, and ignoring Clemency.

Raw intuition can at least be used for fluff damage or multiple incoming hits in A2S, Sheltron provides you with a single block and thus is only useful for one hit and no more every 30 seconds. Clemency is a very impractical skill and merely casting it reduces your DPS to 0 for 3 seconds, not counting the possibility of it being interrupted or healers topping you off faster you can even get it off.

[Phoenicia]

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way. Even if the devs called it "Brilliant".

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content. I do not see how it is relevant. Also SE deliberately went the route of making encounters requiring MORE double tank/healer efforts after people solo tanked all of SCoB (after vastly out-gearing it, mind you) and made it so you CANNOT solo tank FCoB and Alexander. You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

Since 2.1, WAR has been on equal terms (or superior in environments that ignored shield) with PLD when it comes to mitigation but has always been behind because of its effective healing. PLD was the MT of choice because of safety, not mitigation. There is a difference. PLD is far safer than WAR in every scenario.

When a PLD increases its eHP, it increases its effective healing by the same percentage. Rampart increases eHP by 25% AND effective healing by 25%. Sentinel by 67%. PLD is equal in terms of raw mitigation to WAR but the discrepancy comes from safety and effective healing.

WAR healing discrepancy comes from the following:

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Abilities do not get affected by Defiance, WAR receives 25% worse healing from all abilities. This includes all healer abilities with a potency like Lustrate, Tetragammaton, Assize and Essential Dignity. This also includes WAR's own self heals since they do not scale with Defiance. Since percentage healing is removed aside from Benediction, you can see how bad this affects WAR.

One of WAR's major CDs is Thrill of Battle, which increases WAR's eHP but not effective healing, increasing the effective healing discrepancy by 20%. This is usually offset with Convalescence. ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set. Raw Intuition is what puts WAR on equal terms with PLD when it comes to "physical damage mitigation".

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

Classic OPneedNerfs coming in adding irrelevant ad hominems at players and completely wrong statements with no proof or contribution.

I see you are still holding a grudge. But I'll reply to you anyways...

1- No body talked to you.

2- EVERYTHING I stated, I provided either the math, parse or videos of people providing the math or parses for in one or more of my posts.

3- You first came in and attacked the whole warrior community with a childish statement of "It is funny how warriors are afraid to lose their established solidified spot in every raid group" which had absolutely no relevance on any of the threads and adds 0 contribution. This entire thread is about PLDs crying that they have competition for the MT spot. (it isn't even completely taken over!)

4- Please stop with these childish posts and contribute something or simply leave. Thank you.

I will ignore anything you type from now on.

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

..

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

...

Someone has to be lowest DPS. Just like how BRD and MCH are 300 DPS behind DRG and are considered lowest. BRD and MCH still find their place in raid groups. So will PLD.

WAR needs more healing than PLD. That is something that WAR needs! Just because WAR is one of the 2 classes that provide the slashing debuff it became the most independent class in the game? Oh and please let's not pretend that WAR TP was an issue because it didn't exist pre-HW. WAR always had 0 cost GCDs and pacification after Zerk.

Oh and in before someone says T10. We'd be counting exceptions. Also, I main tanked that fight and never had any TP issues. Even when keeping Fracture up 100% on the boss. I used to drop Defiance to increase DPS, which was WAR's version of "stance dancing" before Deliverance.

World/server firsts try to complete content before they have the gear for it. It's a whole different challenge and approach to the game. They also haven't tried WAR MT / PLD OT, they straight went and changed PLD MT to DRK MT. They dropped actual DPS (MNK) for other DPS (NIN) to squeeze in more DPS as well. So let's stop bringing them up when it comes to tank DPS comparisons.

Along with the reasons above, no body should care about world firsts since you, me and the rest of the community, are not in world/server firsts. We play in our statics, and our statics have their own setups, skill levels and conditions. Also PLD's "survival threshold" is lower than WAR. PLD allows healers to DPS more than a WAR tank. PLD providing slightly less DPS than WAR is irrelevant when healers healing PLD can dish out more DPS than the ones healing WAR.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

[OPneedNerfs]

What did I tell ya, as expected from phoenica.

Aw poor phoenica, using "I'll ignore you now" because ad hominems didn't work and a lack of proof weren't good enough.

Funny how this all stemmed from you huh? Guess someone's projecting.

Quit while you're behind. You're making a fool of yourself, especially to veteran tanks.

[Reynhart]

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way.

Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content.

Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)
And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.
Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set.

Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

Someone has to be lowest DPS.

Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

and PLD get's double penalized with GCD and roughly 1/6th total MP loss.

I didn't realize paladins actually wanted to use their MP to cast clemency and stoneskin. From reading through this post, it seems like most of em don't care for it lol.
#jokes

[Phoenicia]

I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

Yoshi-P said he wants to stick to the 2 tank 2 healer 4 DPS formula and not to deviate from it in one of his live letters. So it's not a "claim" by me. He repeats that point every time people ask for hybrids or support roles.

Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

While longer doesn't "necessarily" mean inferior, if a group can do it without dying, it IS inferior. Any static that cleared BCoB before 2.1 did it the "normal" way which lasted 5~8 minutes less. Making it "better".

Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

Solo tank T5 was a thing only when everyone was already ilv90. Which is higher than the required entry level.

The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

I didn't say you can't. I'm saying content isn't designed for it to be that way.

Edit: This also reminded me how stupidly easier it was to do duo tank in Shiva Ex but people still preferred solo tank to kill Shiva a whole 6 seconds faster. Ramuh Ex solo tank - 3 healers was more taking than a normal strat too.

Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)

And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.

Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

First of all: You shouldn't compare WAR and PLD CDs one-to-one because they have a different structure. TOB+IB+Conv is still weaker than Sentinel. Vengeance+IB is slightly stronger than Sentinel. Any IB + CD is stronger than Rampart. On a 1 min CD buster (which most of this games busters), WAR will alternate ToB+IB and Veng+IB. PLD will have a more strict CD "rotation" which, if the fight is longer than 5 minutes (5 busters), will include Hallowed Ground. Overall mitigation is still the same.

I also stated PLD and WAR have almost equal mitigation (one of them is gonna be more than the other depending on the fight) but the discrepancies are safety and effective healing.

Secondly: Inner Beast can be used 5 times per Rampart, not 3. You need 17.5s to recharge + 2.5 to use, and you have Infuriate. So you have 1 IB / 20s, in a 90s you have 4.5 x 20s + 1 infuriate. But that's WAR's mitigation advantage which I mentioned in my post quoting myself:

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

I also said:

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

WAR self-healing isn't "THE" advantage it has. It is something to make up for something else. Inner Beast heal portion is not increased by Defiance as it is not a spell.

I also mentioned that %heals are removed from the game now.

Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

Personally I don't even have Awareness slotted. But ignoring the fact that Raw Intuition is not a "push and forget" like the entirety of PLD's CD kit is ignorant. Also in big AoE situations with large mobs, some WILL get into your flank due to mobs not liking to stand on each other's hitboxes.

No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

I provided the math behind this "hunch". A good WAR will make up for the discrepancy of received healing just like how a good PLD will let their healers and DPS do more DPS.

Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

As I siad earlier in my posts, healers can still capitalize more on PLD's longer CDs and passive mitigation to DPS more. Specially during fluff damage.

But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

WAR MT + WAR OT is like a group running 4 DRGs. You will have more individual DPS (and more raid DPS) but for various reasons, it is not an optimal set up.

[Reynhart]

Yoshi-P said he wants to stick to the 2 tank 2 healer 4 DPS formula and not to deviate from it in one of his live letters. So it's not a "claim" by me. He repeats that point every time people ask for hybrids or support roles.

Thanks for the "out of context" sentence. He said that he want to stick with the trinity, and that another role would be difficult to include is the 2/2/4 setup.
But this setup is only for the Duty Finder. Back in 2.0, some fights didn't require this setup, and it was even a very bad setup. An off-tank is worthless if there's only one target.

Any static that cleared BCoB before 2.1 did it the "normal" way which lasted 5~8 minutes less. Making it "better".

No, only making it faster.

Solo tank T5 was a thing only when everyone was already ilv90. Which is higher than the required entry level.

Yes, maybe. So what ? Didn't it make the setup viable ? Or uninteresting ?

I didn't say you can't. I'm saying content isn't designed for it to be that way.

Again, it depends on the content. With a proper orb management, A4 is doable with a single tank, to be clear much faster with the additionnal DPS.

This also reminded me how stupidly easier it was to do duo tank in Shiva Ex but people still preferred solo tank to kill Shiva a whole 6 seconds faster. Ramuh Ex solo tank - 3 healers was more taking than a normal strat too.

Yet the game let them try this. And it worked. Back in the days, solo tank Ramuh EX was also an effective strategy since Lustrate wasn't reduce by the healing debuff.

You shouldn't compare WAR and PLD CDs one-to-one because they have a different structure.

The problem is that WAR can pop Inner Beast more often than PLD can pop any cooldown. So, apart from Hallowed Ground, whatever cooldown a PLD can use, WAR can use a better combination. While still keeping Holmgang as an "oh,shit" button.

Inner Beast can be used 5 times per Rampart, not 3.

Indeed, I didn't count Infuriate, thanks for going my way. The problem with Inner Beast is that it can easily heal for more that 20% of any healing abilities.
Lustrate is 600, Tetragrammaton is 700. Even with 20% increase, it would pale in comparison to a native healing on top of the 300 potency of Inner Beast.
And let's not count if the WAR is targeted by Clemency during Convalescence...

WAR self-healing may not be "THE" advantage, but it easily put its higher than PLD in terms of eHP.

Personally I don't even have Awareness slotted. But ignoring the fact that Raw Intuition is not a "push and forget" like the entirety of PLD's CD kit is ignorant.

You mean like Sheltron and Bulwark, were you don't blocks if mobs are behind or too far on your flank ? Please...

Also in big AoE situations with large mobs, some WILL get into your flank due to mobs not liking to stand on each other's hitboxes.

If mobs get to your flank, you wouldn't even parry their attack, so why do you pop Raw Intuition for mitigation anyway ? Pop Vengeance, or Inner Beast (This, again...) or even Bloodbath with an overpower spamfest, and you'll keep plenty of HP.

I provided the math behind this "hunch". A good WAR will make up for the discrepancy of received healing just like how a good PLD will let their healers and DPS do more DPS.

The problem with your math is you sound like it's something special for a WAR. It's its basic gameplay, so it will always make up for this discrepancy.
You can't say a PLD is "good" only because it uses its cooldown..

As I siad earlier in my posts, healers can still capitalize more on PLD's longer CDs and passive mitigation to DPS more. Specially during fluff damage.

Again, the gap is so thin between WAR and PLD that healers can output the same DPS with either tank.

WAR MT + WAR OT is like a group running 4 DRGs. You will have more individual DPS (and more raid DPS) but for various reasons, it is not an optimal set up.

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

[stoxastic]

There's a video on Reddit of PLD POV A3S clear with 740 dps. Pretty good if you ask me.

[HoodRat]

Instead of buffing paladin, can we just buff every class in the game stupidly high in order to negate the fact that a vast majority of the people playing mmos are completely retarded and choose to play terribly so I no longer need to carry 7 people in df through alexander while having the highest dps in the group as a warrior just so I can lose the roll on gear I would like to have for progression?

#whatisacomma

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Except you don't lose anything by not having a DRK or a PLD.

There's no irrefutable reason (besides the boring moar dps one) that stacking two Warriors is better than bringing some combination of the three. There are pros and cons to all the setups.

War/War = no Reprisal / no Halone
Pld/Pld = No slashing / no reprisal / no Halone
Drk/Drk = no Slashing / no Path / No Halone

In the war/war combination, you miss out on one less debuff but the other combinations can mitigate that by adding a Ninja. If you want to say "It's not fair that Pld/Drk have to rely on War/Nin for their optimal damage", go talk to the Bards, Machinists, Black Mages and Summoners about their Piercing Debuff and Foes—I'm sure they'll tell you to deal with it and adjust your party comp accordingly.

#HallowedGround