PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Yes, I compared the support-defensive tank to the other tanks with the support-DPS classes to the other "dedicated" DPS classes.

Support classes are an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS classes and are by no means necessary for any fight. Their buffs help but are by no means necessary. Healers should never need ballad unless people keep dying and EVERY DPS class has Invigorate. You can 100% clear all content without BRD/MCH. Also ALL classes bring at least 2 raid-wide beneficial support abilities. Battle Litany, Trick Attack and Mantra say hi. Apocastasis, Eye 4 Eye and Resurrection also say hi.

Guess what? Should we call DRG "independent"? It doesn't need another class to buff its damage at all. Same is for MNK and NIN. If you want to call WAR "independent" because it brings its own slashing debuff, I'll be as stubborn and stupid and say PLD is independent because it doesn't need a healer to cast Stoneskin and Protect. PLD is also independent because it doesn't need another class to provide RoH.

Also I don't get why everyone is getting their panties in a twist, WAR ALWAYS had the slashing debuff... Someone had to have it. PLD never had it. It's not like Heavensward came out and removed the slashing from PLD and gave it to WAR. It added another class (DRK) that needs it but doesn't have it. Out 4 classes, 2 provide the slashing debuff. I do not see it as imbalance. What do you want? Have PLD and DRK also provide the slashing debuff? PLD and DRK already have their "niche" in physical and magical fights, twelve forbid WAR has its own "thing"? I say "just deal with it".

In truth, no class is "independent". ALL three tanks WILL die without a healer. All DPS classes cannot do their max DPS without a tank. Tanks and healers will not meet enrage timers without DPS. No one is truly independent. 1 buff doesn't make a class superior to the rest.

As I said in my post, stop comparing your average static to world first groups that push every inch of DPS to meet checks they aren't supposed to. Also as I said, those groups did not try WAR MT and PLD OT which I assure you are more total raid DPS than DRK MT WAR OT. They dropped MNK which had the INT down for the NIN which brought Trick Attack and is already higher DPS than MNK. They try to squeeze every point of raid DPS because they are doing the content they are vastly undergeared for. You probably will have 5 to 10 ilvs higher on average on your first clear than they were.

I will not go in circles and repeat points that the last 27 pages have been full of, as long as PLDs have shields, easier healing and CDs, and HG, they never should and never will do the DPS of the other tanks. There is no imbalance in this. #Dealwithit.

[Brian_]

snip

Some imbalances translate across all levels of play. The reason is because some imbalances scale down proportionately with skill.

When you look at imbalances in fighting games, RTS games, and, yes, other MMORPGs, you will see a lot of situations where an imbalance at the highest level translates to lower level play.

Like I said earlier, an exceptionally skilled DRK will output exceptional DPS and sufficient survivability while a good DRK will output good DPS and sufficient survivability. An exceptionally skilled PLD will output exceptional DPS and sufficient survivability while a good PLD will also scale down proportionately. Outside of cases where there is a real difference in learning curve that gates access to differing levels of skill, this is generally true. A good PLD is not going to magically out DPS a good DRK.

So when you look at lesser statics, the same issues exist, just on a different scale. Gear helps make up for that gap in player skill but it doesn't make up for that gap in job balance unless one class scales better with gear than another. Eventually, the gear will be enough to carry players past content but that still says nothing of job balance. We'll just be having this same discussion the next raid cycle if the meta doesn't change. Regardless of which class is screwed the next cycle, shouldn't the goal be to balance so that no class is screwed?

Since ASTs are in a similar position but seemingly without this strange territorial defensiveness from their co-healers, let's look at their situation. Everyone with any ounce of sense will say that while AST can work, there are some obvious issues with balance. On the other hand, people deny clear facts and truth when judging PLD and it's puzzling.

Why this keeps going in circles is because the few people against helping out PLD fail to address the key issues in a meaningful way.

Given equal terms, PLD DPS will always be lower than DRK and WAR.

Given equal terms, PLD mitigation and survivability will not always be higher than DRK and WAR.

The current tanking meta is to meet an eHP threshold and then go full DPS thereafter. So, even if PLD has a situational eHP advantage, it's irrelevant because it's above the eHP threshold. As seen in live environments, it's not like the other tanks require drastically different healing while bringing more DPS.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

First of all, PLD is no effing way anywhere near where AST is. AST is screwed hard with a very thorny cactus.

The problem is you are so fixated on PLD's DPS as a MT. We have three tanks, if PLD maintained the same DPS as the other two tanks while keeping its mitigation and safety as is, PLD will simply be the only MT of choice. DRK will be in AST's spot since WAR is the winner OT since everyone gets a hard on at night over WAR's slashing debuff and infinite TP.

If PLD's eHP advantage is "irrelevant" in any single fight, have the PLD OT, you lose what? 70 DPS compared to WAR? WAR MT gains 150~300 DPS over PLD MT. Overall Raid DPS increase of 80~230 DPS. Problem solved. WAR MT / PLD OT even has a higher raid DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT, Just sayin'.

PLD is nowhere near a bad spot. We have three tanks, we have to put them in order, EACH has to shine in a different aspect. If one shines somewhere, the other two will be sub-optimal to it. So the other two need to shine elsewhere, making the one that shined in a different place be sub-optimal in the first scenario. As long as there is a "best", there will be a "worst". You have to deal with it. That is how balance works. If what you are asking for is to have all tanks mitigate the same and do the same DPS, then what you are asking for is homogenization, not balance.

In ANY scanario (Physical, magical or mixed), PLD's mitigation is more-or-less on-par to WAR.

In EVERY scanario, WAR receives less effective healing than PLD.

PLD is NOT shafted in that it takes high magical damage. It mitigates magical damage JUST FINE. Same as WAR.

There are two scenarios where one of the two other tanks will do better, mitigation wise, than PLD:

1- Magical environment: DRK has more options and can increase its eHP at least 15% more than PLD could with the same CD structure. This is the only scenario DRK is better than PLD or WAR. PLD and WAR are not lacking in this environment, DRK is just "better". Magical fights existed in 2.x and did not prevent PLDs from MTing, look at T2, Leviathan ex and Ramuh ex (this one ignores all of PLD's CDs and Shield Oath).

2- Frequent tank busters (Less than 50s frequency): WAR, with its Inner Beast alone, will out-mitigate either PLD or DRK. But ANY combination of tanks can overcome this with tank swapping. So far frequent tank busters have been in T2, T5, T6 and Titan Ex. PLD successfully solo tanked all of these. WAR is just "better" at solo tanking them.

So in any scenario other than the two above, you should have a PLD MT because it plainly "works" better. In any scenario where another tank is better than PLD, just step down from your high horse and accept the inferior OT spot. Problem solved. Your DPS is a non-issue. You don't have to change to DRK, you won't get kicked out of your group.

This is very balanced. It is actually as balanced as it can get. Quality of life changes are acceptable like maybe TP fixes for non-WAR tanks. But NOTHING needs to be done about their main functions as MT or OT mitigation or DPS wise.

[Reynhart]

The problem is you are so fixated on PLD's DPS as a MT.

The problem is that this WHOLE community is fixated on DPS.

WAR MT / PLD OT even has a higher raid DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT, Just sayin'.

I really doubt that, now that WAR got a really strong offensive stance and that Determination doesn't affect auto-attacks.

We have three tanks, we have to put them in order, EACH has to shine in a different aspect.

The problem is that doesn't "shine" anywhere. At best, it's a feeble light in mitigation over the other two tanks.

Make something matters other than pure own DPS and mitigation, that's where you can make other tanks shine.

[Phoenicia]

I really doubt that, now that WAR got a really strong offensive stance and that Determination doesn't affect auto-attacks.

Determination STILL affects Auto-attacks. It affects them less.

PLD in Sword Oath does roughly 70 DPS less than WAR in Deliverance provided it gets TP and Slashing debuff. PLD OT doing 70 less DPS than WAR but WAR MT doing 150~300 DPS more than PLD MT is higher DPS than DRK MT / WAR OT.

PLD "shines" as the single safest tank. I say this for the hundredth time! (well not really, but yeah). Safety is what makes PLD better than WAR. Both tanks mitigate the same damage on busters, PLD does it far more safely.

This game only has three metrics for tanks: DPS, Mitigation, Utility. PLD is already at the top in two of them.

[Reynhart]

PLD "shines" as the single safest tank. I say this for the hundredth time! (well not really, but yeah)

And for the hundreth times (well not really, but yeah) the difference is so thin that it doesn't matter in the vast majority of real content.

This game only has three metrics for tanks: DPS, Mitigation, Utility. PLD is already at the top in two of them.

What, Utility ? You mean like they have a GCD Stun were no fight requires stunning that often ? Or a Silence that became useless long time ago ? Or Divine Veil, that pales in comparison to Storm's Path when it comes to mitigate raid damage (even if you add Rage Of Halone on top of that, since it only works on physical damage) ? Or that, without Storm's Eye, you bring nothing to increase the already good DPS of NINs and the so important DPS of all tanks ?

I think you mispelled WAR when saying one tank is a the top of two metrics.

AND, disregarding the fact that PLD is at the top of mitigation ONLY for physical fights, which tend to be rare since HW. I'd like you to show me how wonderful are Bulwark and Sheltron, or even the passive mitigation of Block, for tanking the last boss of the Vault, the last boss or Facility or even the Manipulator...

[Phoenicia]

And for the hundreth times (well not really, but yeah) the difference is so thin that it doesn't matter in the vast majority of real content.

What, Utility ? You mean like they have a GCD Stun were no fight requires stunning that often ? Or a Silence that became useless long time ago ? Or Divine Veil, that pales in comparison to Storm's Path when it comes to mitigate raid damage (even if you add Rage Of Halone on top of that, since it only works on physical damage) ? Or that, without Storm's Eye, you bring nothing to increase the already good DPS of NINs and the so important DPS of all tanks ?

I think you mispelled WAR when saying one tank is a the top of two metrics.

AND, disregarding the fact that PLD is at the top of mitigation ONLY for physical fights, which tend to be rare since HW. I'd like you to show me how wonderful are Bulwark and Sheltron, or even the passive mitigation of Block, for tanking the last boss of the Vault, the last boss or Facility or even the Manipulator...

Dude, did you read my whole post?

PLD's mitigation in magical fights is REALLY GOOD. DRK is just "better". It's not like PLD will die in a magical fight whereas a DRK wouldn't. DRK has 1 CD for magical damage that a PLD doesn't have. If DRK can manage a CD rotation for a fight, PLD will manage a similar CD rotation fo that fight just as easily.

Safety is HUGE. There is a reason you don't see WAR MTs running rampant but you still see PLD MTs. If you refuse to see that then you just selectively choose to ignore facts. In any combination containing PLD, PLD is usually the MT.

Again, Storm's Eye is not unique to WAR. NIN has it too. NIN loses about 50~70 DPS if it applies its own DE. Considering NIN does ~1300 DPS, that's not even 5%.

Also again, Storm's Path is not the holy grail of all utility as you make it. 90% of the time a good WAR wouldn't apply it. If it is strictly up 100% of the fight then: 1- WAR is not using BB at all, doing 50~70 (5~7%) less DPS than it should (similar to DPS lost by NIN). Also no triple Fell Cleaves are happening since it's impossible to keep SP and SE without letting one drop if you triple FC. 2- WAR keeps BB but can't use SE causing a 10% DPS loss on EVERY CLASS that uses slashing debuff. If a party is without NIN: WAR loses ~100 DPS, DRK loses ~100 DPS and PLD loses ~90 DPS.

Most of the "massive" AoE happens after jumps, Divine Veil can still work better than WAR's already-fallen-off, if it was even applied in the first place, Storm Path. Also on any single attack, unless the attack literally 1-shots you, a 10% layer of HP is higher mitigation than pure 10% reduced damage.

PLD has Clemency, a GREAT utility that PLD can get the full potential of as an OT.

PLD has Stoneskin, a GREAT utility that PLD can get the full potential of as a MT or OT.

PLD has Cover, gimmicky but has great uses and saved many raids in the past. Will probably still see great uses in the future.

PLD can cast Protect on any revived member instead of healers.

PLD can pop Convalescence and healers can AoE heal the raid and ignore single healing the PLD and it'd still be enough.

Stop over-dramatizing WAR's "utility".. It's overrated.

For the entirety of 2.x, PLD was the preferred tank even though WAR mitigated better, do you know why? Well, nothing has changed. PLD is still safer than WAR, PLD still has the better HG, PLD still is easier to heal, PLD still has more utility.

People wouldn't have even cared about PLD DPS if the new tank option "DRK" didn't make an appearance. But guess what? DRK is POOP in mitigation and safety compared to PLD. And no, Dark Mind doesn't justify DRK's mitigation. Living Dead is one of the worst CDs to ever make an appearance in FFXIV.

[Brian_]

snip

But according to your logic, AST requires no fixes. They still clear A3S. In your words, it doesn't matter because statics will adjust around them.

Obviously, reality is different. While they can clear the content, balance issues are apparent just as with PLD.

Again, unaddressed in your posts is the tanking meta. Variation is fine, but with tanking, there are 3 aspects that are obviously king because they are the baseline functions of the job. First, they need to be able to live through the incoming damage and mitigate it in a meaningful way. Second, they need to be able to hold aggro. The third is their DPS output. Those are the three main functioning points of a tank in this game. If you have a tank unable to live through the damage, they are unplayable. If people are constantly ripping hate off the tank, that's not going to work. If you have a tank unable to pull their weight offensively, they are swapped out for one that can. Again, we have real examples of this happening in past and present terms.

Currently, all tanks live through the incoming damage with no real differentiation in healing so the "safety" advantage you keep harping on is irrelevant. IT'S IRRELEVANT. All three tanks survive just fine. All three tanks hold aggro well enough. Only one tank obviously lags behind the other two in DPS.

As for the homogenization, variety should come from their utility. So STR debuff vs. INT debuff vs. Path (stacking issues aside) is the type of variety that should set the tanks apart and differentiate the jobs. Self healing vs. weaker targeted healing is another variation in utility. TBH, tanks should all provide their own damage type debuff. WARs have slashing, DRKs and PLDs should also have their own damage debuffs -- so maybe piercing so you aren't so heavily incentivized to pair a DRG with a BRD.

Variety should also come from their play styles and visual styles. It's called different means to the same end.

If you're having a PLD OT, you might as well just have a DRK OT instead. They're better suited for the job than PLDs are and allow you to further increase raid DPS by dropping MNK for NIN / DRG.

Again, why does this problem arise? Because of an imbalance in the baseline. If the DPS was the same, then you would be having a real debate rather than one swayed so heavily by DPS. There is a reason why people call this game DPSXIV.

In ANY scanario (Physical, magical or mixed), PLD's mitigation is more-or-less on-par to WAR.

In EVERY scanario, WAR receives less effective healing than PLD.

PLD is NOT shafted in that it takes high magical damage. It mitigates magical damage JUST FINE. Same as WAR.

There are two scenarios where one of the two other tanks will do better, mitigation wise, than PLD:

First, you're just agreeing with what I said. PLD does not always have the best survivability. Plain and simple. But, again, they are always the lowest DPS.

Second, if you played PLD or watched any PLD clear videos, you would realize something. PLDs are spending the large majority of fights IN SWORD OATH. In ideal situations, they spend basically the entire fight in sword oath. Why? Because that's the only way they push out even close to sufficient DPS. So much for that safety and effective healing advantage.

Third, it's hilarious that you're basically saying "the difference in survivability doesn't matter because PLD (and DRK/WAR) are still living through the damage just fine" to prove your point but you seemingly ignore that truth when it's true for the other tanks and is basically the crux of the larger issue with trading safety for DPS. SAFETY DOESN'T MATTER. PLDs are dropping that safety to MAKE UP FOR THEIR CRAPPY DAMAGE ANYWAYS. So in the end, you have a tank that isn't safer and just deals less damage. BALANCED.

[Phoenicia]

Huge wall of text of redundant junk.

A few points, I'm not gonna go in circles and re-iterate the same junk over and over.

Please tell me where in my posts I said AST doesn't need buffs? I said in so many posts that tank balance is no where near healers' and DPS.

You have to be blind or ignorant to not see how "safe" PLD is compared to WAR.

Don't worry, PLD and DRK will get their slashing debuff when BRD and MCH get their piercing and BLM and SMN get their Foe's.

The utility difference is already present to differentiate between the tanks. And PLD brings by far the most utility of the three in at least 5 abilities. *In b4 some retard mentions Storm Path.*

PLD can afford to MT in Sword Oath, it's not news. I did that in T9 Savage at ilv110 for the entire first phase and golems. And T13 at ilv130 until adds. WARs used to drop Defiance a lot as MT in fights like T10, 11 and 12. Now, WAR tanks in Deliverance 80% of the time and DRK drops Grit. Your point? Oh, you want PLD to do the same DPS as Deliverance WAR and non-Grit DRK in Shield Oath? Hmm...

Btw, you are NOT Lucrezia nor Elysium, and unless you were with them as a PLD and you got dropped for a DRK, you have no right to complain here. I have explained many times why 70~100 DPS difference is not as game breaking for average raid groups as it is for bleeding-edge world/server first competition.

If doing 70 DPS less than WAR is what you define as "CRAPPY DAMAGE", then there is not much I can say to you.

If you are unhappy with PLD, don't effing play it, stick to WAR. There is a reason why the game has different classes. If you can't stomach having 70 DPS less than a WAR, then don't play it.