PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Valkyrie-Amber]

... hallowed ground is only thing that makes pld better than dark in defense. any healer class will have same difficulty healing a dark they they would have healing a pld. why I never complained about war is cause they are harder to heal so they are balanced really.

The issue is dark and pld dps difference yet they have basically same cds and no on pld parry proc rate is super lower cause of shield. so darks parry more.

my solution remove plds Shelton and give us another aoe like the one ilbrand uses in cut scene crescent slash or something. course the radious would be super close and done within one mobs distance around you skipping the rear open part or the radius. why should plds get a move like this? circle of scorn cant be used at will like warriors over power its ogcd. even if you kept potency 100 like cos would still add a few numbers making balance.

Shelton is such a gimmick if you play at say 40ms and under then you can time it right to block a buster but 150ms+ you will most likely block auto attack and take buster hit so make sure to save gcds prior to relying on Shelton.

[CarnivalNights]

This is the first MMO I've played where there's expectations for a tank to deal high DPS. It's wacky. Other MMOs have multi-specializations that allow a different set of skills for one class that wants to tank/DPS/heal. This one? Nah, you output DPs while being a tank. It's wacky. It's anarchy.

[Ralvenom]

ok so my pld ilevel 186 bairly does 815dps in sword oath on dummy 200 blade
dark same ilevel like gear 180 wep 950+
war same ilevel gear again with 180 wep 1050+

So plds need to be fixed majorly because this is a bad joke and my rotations are optimized before any one says anything like git gud.

PLD have the best anti-tank buster CDs, and you're whining because the warriors do more dmg? WHAT?!...

[Xenosan]

Storm path is not permanent without some real tradeoffs from the War -- and even then it may not be up for big aoe, as was mentionned before.

If Path didn't yield a Wrath/Abandon stack && risked Maim falloff I'd agree - but it doesn't so I don't. The penalty you mention IMO exemplifies why the Path/Eye/Butcher GCD layout of WAR is one the best functioning GCD cores of any job (though I wish Fracture would be given a spot) - and exemplifies parallel class & job ability execution and synergy. The Pros/Cons of their WS priorities are a balance of Threat/DPS/Utility (and still feed Defiance/Deliverance either way you go). If you stay relative that penalty is far better than PLD's Clemency/Stoneskin which cost a GCD + half a second + MP cost + combo interruption for funzies.

The AoE thing stays relative too; INT/STR Down, Rend Weapon, Rend Mind, Disable, Reprisal, etc all share that drawback.

Edit: Something I consider too:

Reprisal is a proactive Debuff gated behind a reactive Weaponskill.

Clemency is a reactive spell gated behind for being GCD with a 3 second cast time where as Divine Veil - a proactive CD - is oGCD, ie instant - but gated behind a heal for trigger.

[NFaelivrin]

storm's path is also better than delirium and rage of halone combined since the latter two only decrease int/str instead of damage straight out and, to my knowledge, bosses and mobs also have a det stat that influences their damage.

[Disc]

storm's path is also better than delirium and rage of halone combined since the latter two only decrease int/str instead of damage straight out and, to my knowledge, bosses and mobs also have a det stat that influences their damage.

I haven't seen any test on this in a while. Last results I saw put STR/INT down at about 10%, same as Storm's path. So decided to go out and do one real quick.

MaxHit is ignored because it is not as reliable, and STR down did drop occasionally during tests. No buffs/debuffs other than Shield Oath & Rage of Halone used in any test. Shield Oath is a constant for both tests.

Lv 60 PLD Base(Shield Oath)
Lv 59 Clockwork Harvestman
558 Hits Received
0 parry(back turned)
0 block(no shield, back turned)
MinHit:265
Focused on getting more test samples from this one because any flaws in the MinHit from this one will drastically change results.

265(MinHit)/0.80(Shield Oath) = 331.25 Damage

Therefore presumed Base MinHit is ±331.25 Damage.

Lv 60 PLD with Rage of Halone STR down(Shield Oath)
Lv 59 Clockwork Harvestman
82 Hits Received
0 parry(back turned, used Halone combo attacks between enemy attacks)
0 block
MinHit: 241
Very active testing, looking for any significant change to MinHit.

241/331.25 = 0.728 ~= 72.8% of base damage, or 37.2% mitigation
0.80(Shield Oath)*0.90(Storm's Path) = 0.72 = 72% or 38% mitigation
Conclusion: Halone STR down = 9~10% mitigation, meaning STR/INT down should result in the same mitigation as Storm's path for their respective damage type. Xenosan's theory may be correct, but the difference in mitigation would be small enough that you would need extensive testing and number crunching to spot it.(talking like 250 damage on a 25,000 damage tankbuster) Note that fight times were 11minutes vs 4 minutes & average damage varied by nearly 20% with the only change being Rage of Halone.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Thanks for testing.

I think people assumed STR/INT down were about 8% damage reduction because of the damage formula having Weapon Damage in it. (Same reason people presumably "calculated" Berserk to be 40% damage increase or 80% of Atk Power added.)

Since Berserk seems to be actually adding 50% damage to attacks, I think we are missing something in the damage formula.

Either that, or the formula is correct but NPCs do not have WD in their calculations.

[Giantbane]

Thanks for testing.

I think people assumed STR/INT down were about 8% damage reduction because of the damage formula having Weapon Damage in it. (Same reason people presumably "calculated" Berserk to be 40% damage increase or 80% of Atk Power added.)

Since Berserk seems to be actually adding 50% damage to attacks, I think we are missing something in the damage formula.

Either that, or the formula is correct but NPCs do not have WD in their calculations.

It would have to be something off with the damage formula since Berserk looks like it's giving a full (or very close to full) 50% attack boost. Either that or the tool tips are misleading, IE: it *says* attack power (berserk) or STR/INT (halone/delerium), but it really applies the damage boost/reduction after the weapon component has been included and doesn't just effect the base stats you see on the character stat sheet.

[Xenosan]

^ That's true. The silver lining though is that % reduction buffs/debuffs stacking is multiplicative not additive.

Haven't tested for confirmation, but theory crafting wise: STR/INT Down + Path would mitigate more damage (though marginal) than Reprisal + Path. Same reason why you usually don't want to stack Rampart + Sentinel (Although Dark Mind is throwing a wrench in this rationale), and Inner Beast provides a full 20% damage mitigation opposed to PLD/DRK's Damage Reduction CDs due to their tank stances having 20% reduction builtin - which reduces any buff's damage reduction by a couple %s (and becomes greater with each CD stacked). It's one of the reasons I think SE has Oaths/Grit on GCD + MP cost, Rampart/Shadowskin.. these CDs are 'more effective' when not in tank stance and they don't want us stance dancing around them exploiting that - obviously hi inc damage and tankbusters are an exception

Since STR/INT down is applied on a different variable in the maths, it doesn't suffer the diminishing returns of stacking like straight damage reduction buffs/debuffs do.

Same is true of slashing/blunt/piercing Damage Increases (Dancing/Eye/Disembowel/Dragon Kick) vs Attack Power (Berserk) vs Damage Increase (BfB FoF) vs STR/DEX/INT+ (X-Pots, Hawk Eye)

edit: a few pages back was talking about this.. why I mentioned an example of PLD having both INT and STR Down, WAR having Path, and DRK having some other unique mitigation debuff (absorbing physical/magical attack power?). That way all 3 tanks have a different form of raid wide mitigation debuff utility that can stack without diminishing or irrelevant returns

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Now here's someone that understands mechanics and makes discussions meaningful instead of taking arguments in circles.

As you said, WAR applying Storm's Path is a trade-off. Which I tried to point out many times. Reynhart speaks as if WAR can apply SE, SP and keep aggro/DPS high with BB and throwing triple Fell Cleaves while maintaining the same (or better) mitigation as PLD with no trade-offs. Which made me think the guy doesn't have any reading comprehension or is just trolling for no reason.

As for buffs stacking, buffs stacked still increase eHP by the same % and each layer multiplies the new eHP by that %.

For example:

PLD has 10,000.

With Shield Oath: eHP is 10,000 * 1.25 = 12,500.

With Shield Oath + Rampart: eHP is 12,500 * 1.25 = 15,625.

While Rampart would reduce less than 20% from the total damage (16% actually), it is still reducing damage received after shield oath by 20%.
So even though you get less damage% mitigated per CD per hit, the effect is still the same in terms of eHP.

This multiplicative effect is less "noticeable" when you apply different effects instead of layers of the same effect: Like how WAR increases max HP with 1 CD and reduces damage with another. Or like how stat down and Storm Path. But in terms of eHP (effective damage) the buffs effects are the same.

For DPS increasing buffs, multiplicative stacking is always better for obvious reasons.