PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Brian_]

snip

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

The extra DPS is always helpful.

A PLD will only situationally have better survivability than a DRK or WAR.

Of those situations, only a handful actually matter. And when I say matter, I mean that it actually changes how they need to be healed to a significant degree.

Notice the imbalance here?

If PLDs were ALWAYS the best tank for survivability in any situation, then fine. That's an actual trade-off. They aren't.

Also, like I said, the tanking meta is what it is. That PLD has more survivability doesn't matter because once it is beyond a certain threshold, it is dropped for more DPS anyways.

As for every class needing others to carry them, let's use the parse you cling to for dear life as an example.

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

Nevermind the blatantly obvious flaws in how it's a dummy parse of pure DPS which is completely disconnected from PLD MTing. Also disregard the fact that people love to claim PLDs have higher overall mitigation and comparable DPS but fail to mention that a PLD needs to stay in Sword Oath to achieve said DPS so they won't have higher overall eHP. Swap back to Shield Oath at the appropriate times you say? Well have fun breaking your combos, losing GCDs, and gimping your DPS for that duration. Nobody has posted a real comparison of their DPS in actual live environments. But, we have multiple top progression groups dropping PLDs because they just didn't do enough. Think about that.

Raiding is a team experience, obviously. But, what we're looking at is different amounts of carry. The reality is WARs and DRKs in the current end-game don't require drastically different healing than a PLD. Ask the groups that have switched. It's not like because they're using a DRK instead of a PLD, their SCH is now stuck full-time healing. No. Their SCH is still full-time DPSing during light damage phases outside of spot support and support healing when the damage starts ramping up. So in the end, you have negligible differences in actual healing with real differences in DPS.

Next, design. Skill trees can offer variety when it's used to give the same class different roles. But, within those roles, there is very little variety at the highest level. I stopped playing WoW shortly before WotLK. I was in a guild that was consistently alliance first or second for all major kills on one of the largest PvP servers. The only reason we weren't server first was the horde first guild was a top 10 guild in the world. Back when I played, there was 1 tanking build, 1 DPS build, and 1 PvP build for Warrior. Maybe years later, Blizzard would find better luck with their skill balance, but there were obvious imbalances through stretches of WoW's history that lead to cookie-cutter talent builds that robbed players of their choices. To deny the existence of imbalances during a game's infancy is unbelievably stupid. Balance is something you work towards and something very hard to achieve. Last I checked, HW is still pretty new and yet you'll have some obviously biased voices clinging to the idea that everything is fine.

[Reynhart]

The developpers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

[Phoenicia]

CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way. Even if the devs called it "Brilliant".

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content. I do not see how it is relevant. Also SE deliberately went the route of making encounters requiring MORE double tank/healer efforts after people solo tanked all of SCoB (after vastly out-gearing it, mind you) and made it so you CANNOT solo tank FCoB and Alexander. You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

Since 2.1, WAR has been on equal terms (or superior in environments that ignored shield) with PLD when it comes to mitigation but has always been behind because of its effective healing. PLD was the MT of choice because of safety, not mitigation. There is a difference. PLD is far safer than WAR in every scenario.

When a PLD increases its eHP, it increases its effective healing by the same percentage. Rampart increases eHP by 25% AND effective healing by 25%. Sentinel by 67%. PLD is equal in terms of raw mitigation to WAR but the discrepancy comes from safety and effective healing.

WAR healing discrepancy comes from the following:

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Abilities do not get affected by Defiance, WAR receives 25% worse healing from all abilities. This includes all healer abilities with a potency like Lustrate, Tetragammaton, Assize and Essential Dignity. This also includes WAR's own self heals since they do not scale with Defiance. Since percentage healing is removed aside from Benediction, you can see how bad this affects WAR.

One of WAR's major CDs is Thrill of Battle, which increases WAR's eHP but not effective healing, increasing the effective healing discrepancy by 20%. This is usually offset with Convalescence. ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Any self healing WAR has, exists to make up for this major discrepancy.

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set. Raw Intuition is what puts WAR on equal terms with PLD when it comes to "physical damage mitigation".

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

Classic OPneedNerfs coming in adding irrelevant ad hominems at players and completely wrong statements with no proof or contribution.

I see you are still holding a grudge. But I'll reply to you anyways...

1- No body talked to you.

2- EVERYTHING I stated, I provided either the math, parse or videos of people providing the math or parses for in one or more of my posts.

3- You first came in and attacked the whole warrior community with a childish statement of "It is funny how warriors are afraid to lose their established solidified spot in every raid group" which had absolutely no relevance on any of the threads and adds 0 contribution. This entire thread is about PLDs crying that they have competition for the MT spot. (it isn't even completely taken over!)

4- Please stop with these childish posts and contribute something or simply leave. Thank you.

I will ignore anything you type from now on.

A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

..

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

...

Someone has to be lowest DPS. Just like how BRD and MCH are 300 DPS behind DRG and are considered lowest. BRD and MCH still find their place in raid groups. So will PLD.

WAR needs more healing than PLD. That is something that WAR needs! Just because WAR is one of the 2 classes that provide the slashing debuff it became the most independent class in the game? Oh and please let's not pretend that WAR TP was an issue because it didn't exist pre-HW. WAR always had 0 cost GCDs and pacification after Zerk.

Oh and in before someone says T10. We'd be counting exceptions. Also, I main tanked that fight and never had any TP issues. Even when keeping Fracture up 100% on the boss. I used to drop Defiance to increase DPS, which was WAR's version of "stance dancing" before Deliverance.

World/server firsts try to complete content before they have the gear for it. It's a whole different challenge and approach to the game. They also haven't tried WAR MT / PLD OT, they straight went and changed PLD MT to DRK MT. They dropped actual DPS (MNK) for other DPS (NIN) to squeeze in more DPS as well. So let's stop bringing them up when it comes to tank DPS comparisons.

Along with the reasons above, no body should care about world firsts since you, me and the rest of the community, are not in world/server firsts. We play in our statics, and our statics have their own setups, skill levels and conditions. Also PLD's "survival threshold" is lower than WAR. PLD allows healers to DPS more than a WAR tank. PLD providing slightly less DPS than WAR is irrelevant when healers healing PLD can dish out more DPS than the ones healing WAR.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

The only fights where WAR mitigates noticeably more than the other two tanks is a fight that has a 45s or less CD on the tank busters.

[Reynhart]

First of all, I like how you're counting the exceptions of the rule in CT2 and 3.

I'm not the one stating the absolute "developpers do not want"...

T2 Enrage was NOT planned, and even after it was discovered, it was/is an inferior strategy that took at least 8 minutes longer than a group doing it the normal way.

Longer doesn't mean inferior. Like I said in another topic, if you do a run two times faster but with countless death on the way, your run is WORSE.

Solo tank and solo heal strats were always developed AFTER (vastly) out-gearing content.

Solo tank T5 was a thing when BCoB was still out of Duty Finder. The same is true for T9.

You proved nothing in counting the few exceptions to the main rule: 2 tanks, 2 healrs and 4 DPS.

The thing I proved is that you CAN have different party setup. Would the same setup be used for every content ? Of course not, but each content would have an optimal party setup.

Spells and ONLY Spells are boosted by 20%, not 25%, this puts WAR at 4% less effective healing from Spells than PLD and DRK.

Which back in the days of ARR were...almost every healing received...oh and by the way, having higher HP max meant that Lustrate and Stoneskin offered the same eHP% as PLD (And stoneskin still does)
And you're purposely ignoring that Inner Beast (Increase your eHP as high as Rampart) already heals you, and is tied to your attack power, like Second Wind and Equilibrium, giving you a much greater self heal potential.
Let's also ignore the fact that WAR can use Inner Beast three times for one Rampart.

ToB+Conv is still weaker than Rampart (17% vs 20% effective damage reduction). Let's not pretend that PLD doesn't have a 30% Conv.

Again, let's ignore than ToB+Conv+Inner Beast is far greater than Rampart...

WAR has Raw Intuition which is more reliable than Bulwark AND Sheltron combined, it still comes with a negative side that requires another CD (Awareness) to off-set.

Ok, another WAR who can't manage to keep monster in front of him...sorry, but explain how you end up hit from flank or back when you're tanking a single boss ? You know, the times where mitigation really matters ?

Yes, PLD is a LOT easier to heal than WAR. Ask any healer main.

No, it's not, and most healers only have a "hunch" that it's easier. Or come to this threads to eat uneducated statements like this.

Someone has to be lowest DPS.

Indeed, one has to be. The problem is that what PLD has to offer is meaningless. As long as any party needs two healers to survive, any added mitigation is worthless.

In any fight where PLD's MT mitigation is "not far superior to WAR" for whatever-reason that doesn't exist, just flip the roles, have WAR MT and PLD OT, it is a better overall DPS setup than even DRK MT and WAR OT. Try it.

But still a lesser overall DPS as WAR MT + WAR OT.

[Brian_]

snip

Did you seriously just compare PLD vs. WAR / DRK to BRD / MCH vs. dedicated DPS classes?

BRD and MCH bring unique and necessary support because that's what they are -- a support DPS class. If they reclassify PLD as a support tank role and gave PLD unique, irreplaceable and mandatory raid support at the cost of a marginal amount of individual DPS, that would be fine, too. That would be an actual trade-off rather than the current non-trade-off.

As for WARs being independent, anyone you ask will say the same thing. They are by far the most well rounded and complete tank. Are you really going to argue this point?

If PLDs are to push the type of DPS that people assume they're pushing, it's in Sword Oath. All tanks have the same effective healing returns in DPS stance.

Top progression groups made those changes because it was higher overall raid DPS with no meaningful losses. Healing was still a non-issue despite dropping PLDs, SCHs were playing exactly the same despite DRK MT, and because they were getting the int debuff from DRK, MNK was irrelevant compared to the additional DPS and utility NIN brings. That comp was strictly better in balance terms. In other words, there was a real imbalance. Results speak for themselves. I guess since those results and facts don't agree with you, we should ignore them.

If you're going to make the argument that balance doesn't matter at a lower level, then balance changes shouldn't effect you either. After all, your static can just adjust. It's curious that you still fight tooth and claw against the obvious issues PLD has.

[OPneedNerfs]

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

[NFaelivrin]

Its worth noting, too, that in the transition between a realm reborn and heavensward warrior got a reliable defensive off-gcd in raw intuition and another self-heal in equilibrium whereas PLD got sheltron, which would be amazing if the thing it was made for (physical tankbusters) existed in any meaningful way in savage.

[Reynhart]

Its worth noting, too, that in the transition between a realm reborn and heavensward warrior got a reliable defensive off-gcd in raw intuition and another self-heal in equilibrium whereas PLD got sheltron, which would be amazing if the thing it was made for (physical tankbusters) existed in any meaningful way in savage.

Ok, it's nice to go towards the "right" end, but you can't dismiss Sheltron while still saying that Raw Intuition is good, since they have the same requirement, and ignoring Clemency.

[NFaelivrin]

Ok, it's nice to go towards the "right" end, but you can't dismiss Sheltron while still saying that Raw Intuition is good, since they have the same requirement, and ignoring Clemency.

Raw intuition can at least be used for fluff damage or multiple incoming hits in A2S, Sheltron provides you with a single block and thus is only useful for one hit and no more every 30 seconds. Clemency is a very impractical skill and merely casting it reduces your DPS to 0 for 3 seconds, not counting the possibility of it being interrupted or healers topping you off faster you can even get it off.

[OPneedNerfs]

What did I tell ya, as expected from phoenica.

Aw poor phoenica, using "I'll ignore you now" because ad hominems didn't work and a lack of proof weren't good enough.

Funny how this all stemmed from you huh? Guess someone's projecting.

Quit while you're behind. You're making a fool of yourself, especially to veteran tanks.