Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Maxidelta]

You keep trying to use Party Finder as an end-all be all, but let's be fair - if you want to go in blind, you can likewise use a party finder.

You have no control over DF who you group with. Zero. All a person has to do is click a tick box and have the appropriate ilvl and progress. If you want control you can do that with a PF.

If someone chooses to kick you for not knowing what to do / being new? Sorry - that's the will of the majority, and it happens.

Pretty sure that's abusing the vote kick system, you can get reported and punished. There's no current option for "because they are new and I want to clear this now".

[Eidolon]

You have no control over DF who you group with. Zero. All a person has to do is click a tick box and have the appropriate ilvl and progress. If you want control you can do that with a PF.



Pretty sure that's abusing the vote kick system, you can get reported and punished. There's no current option for "because they are new and I want to clear this now".

Difference of play style is not reportable. If you get kicked - [thats too bad]

[gorezilla1]

- Did you watch Youtube videos before entering the dungeon
- Did you watch the guides before entering the dungeon.

That's just weird and that is also news to me. I've never known anyone who complained that people were displeased because they didn't check a dungeon guide. However, when it comes to 8 or 24 man content I really have to ask: WHat is your excuse for not watching a video? Those fights can be very tough and the video guides are usually only a couple of minutes long. A person who can't go check before hand is either ignorant that they exist and that's fine (now the know), or just lazy. The laziness however, is not okay. If you think A4 is simply a dungeon, I would like to alert you at this moment that you are grossly mistaken.

[Maxidelta]

Difference of play style is not reportable. If you get kicked - [thats too bad]

Abusing the vote kick however, is. Voting to kick is used for one of four things. Harassment, AFK, Offline and Cheating.

If the vote kick is used for any reason other than those four, you can be reported and you will be punished.

[gorezilla1]

Agree 100%. They watch a video and win, yay them but they really only won because some held their hands and made a video/guide. I always say to the people that ask if you watched a video that even the people that made the video had to learn it before making it.

Then form a party with 7 other like-minded people who want to learn first hand. Saying otherwise is nothing short of a lie because you are going in and hoping people can tell you what to do. If you weren't, you would have made a pf to teach yourself. Please let us not delude ourselves. Watch a vid. It's easy, painless, and leads to faster clears.

[Erepio]

snip.

actually ppl can kick for a reason other than the four listed, which might include difference in play style

Greetings!

To begin, I have removed several posts commenting negatively about the company or the service itself, as well as a side discussion about the use of spell checking. Those suggestions have been heard, but take away from the concerns in this thread, which is a criticism of policy and confusion resulting from a message sent by a GM.

I have escalated several of the concerns with the messaging to the appropriate group for review and ways to improve their messaging to prevent confusion like this.

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

[Maxidelta]

"Refusal to fulfill one's job function" is basically meaning refusal to actually do anything. As in you're moving but that's about it. I would happily put that under "harassment" because you're refusing to participate.

Also notice the line "Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement.".

Not knowing the tactic does not equal not fulfilling ones job. Sorry, but it doesn't apply.

[Erepio]

snip

a) didnt say it applied to anything, i put it there to clarify that the four choice you get with vote dismiss doesnt mean u can only vote dismiss for those reasons

b) you rly need to read better..it says "example" as in pointing out 2 reasons there might be 10 others reasons that are valid

at the end of the day...its basicly a case to case basis and its comes down to the GM if ppl get punished or not

for the record its my opinion that if you do EX or Alex/Coil in DF u should watch a vid to get an idea of the fight, otherwise there 7 other ppl that you wasting the time of, if you want to go blind there is always PF, heck on my server there is LS dedicated for ppl that want to go in blind

[Dracosavarian]

Alright, I'm tired, so, I'm not going to bother quoting etc save one bit. Just too tired to even bother with that.


If anyone is wondering about my attitude, and why I am reacting so strongly, it is because in general I have a severe dislike for those who use the anonymity of the internet as an excuse to treat other human beings as someone, or something, less than you and beneath your station or time because they do not, or have not done as you would have wished them to. The world itself doesn't work that way, and if one believes it to be otherwise, well, likely disappointment will be a constant companion.

That is it, to summarize my feelings.

And I am seeing a massive amount of that in this thread from people. So yes, it gets to me. I try and treat other people with respect and dignity at all times. Something I am failing at in this thread but we all have our moments. This is just one of mine, where I am admittedly getting slightly terse. And the reason that sparks that is because I feel people just generally view this whole situation with...such...vitriol...such massive hate.

All because they come into DF, Duty finder mind you, saying something along the lines of one of two things.

1: Hey guys, New to this. Watched a video but don't remember everything. So, I might need to ask some questions.

2: Hey folks, new to this dungeon. Forgive me for asking but once we get to the bosses is it ok if I have a brief rundown so I don't wipe the party/raid?

Nowhere did I ever say " Hey, it's cool if the guy comes in not ever having done it, never asks questions, and continuously wipes the party/raid. That's on the group because...reasons. DF. Peace. "

Now, I've skimmed my replies (Bear with me, I'm tired, just got off work) and as far as I can see nowhere did I ever say the above paragraph was cool with me. Or even some remote semblance of it. Yet I have seen others imply that I have felt that someone coming in blind and saying nothing, and wiping the Party/Raid and never piping up is kosher.

It's not. Period. When you type out and they don't reply, despite all your attempts, then the kick is justified.

In fact I've had an entire FC in Crystal Tower back in the day when it was just part 1, intentionally troll and wipe the entire raid. Repeatedly. So yes, I know frustration.


Where I take issue is when people react to someone saying something along the lines of 1 or 2, and reacting very powerfully that their time is being wasted and OMG KICK THEM NOW.

And yes, I have seen this. Repeatedly. Quite often in Syrcus or World of Darkness especially. Thankfully, the group for the most part shouted those people down and voted to not kick the new player in question when said complainer brought it up. Then they helped, offered advice, and hey...look at that. Quick 2 minute explanation and everyone clears.

This is what I take issue with. This...sense of entitlement, this sense of their time being wasted. In a freaking game of all things. This sense of arrogance, where someone new comes in and genuinely asks for help and wants to learn, and is treated thoroughly like trash, dismissed as worthless, and spat upon immediately in retaliation.

And yes...this happens. A lot. And quite frankly it pisses me off to no end to see someone who is trying to learn and genuinely attempt things instead of being an outright troll or a faceroller, being treated as trash like that. All because they didn't watch a video, according to [Insert Complainer Here].

Seriously...that's petty. That's beyond petty. It truly is.

Now...as for me demonizing others...as I was told...

Difference of play style is not reportable. If you get kicked - [thats too bad]

Not that I have been, as I feel I haven't...but, when people say things like this, do I really need to even try?


On that note...I'm out.

To summarize:

Party Finder? Cool. You have a right to complain.

Duty Finder? Where it's random? A gamble on what you will get? To expect people to do as you wish in Duty Finder before you even click Join, is absolute folly.

It's a tick mark box and a random group of people thrown together, by design, to help people clear content because otherwise we'd all end up back in the days of WoW where only .1% (Exaggeration) saw Illidan.

I'll take the bumps in the road over that any day, thanks.

[Reynhart]

for the record its my opinion that if you do EX or Alex/Coil in DF u should watch a vid to get an idea of the fight, otherwise there 7 other ppl that you wasting the time of, if you want to go blind there is always PF, heck on my server there is LS dedicated for ppl that want to go in blind

If people absolutely don't want their time to be wasted, they shouldn't use the Duty Finder.
It's exactly like people who used the roulette and withdrawed before the penalty just because they didn't like where they ended.
If you don't want random, don't join random groups.

Besides, you'd be suprised by how many people can learn on the fly and do better than some who got "carried" for their past wins.