Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Maxidelta]

Difference of play style is not reportable. If you get kicked - [thats too bad]

Abusing the vote kick however, is. Voting to kick is used for one of four things. Harassment, AFK, Offline and Cheating.

If the vote kick is used for any reason other than those four, you can be reported and you will be punished.

[Erepio]

snip.

actually ppl can kick for a reason other than the four listed, which might include difference in play style

Greetings!

To begin, I have removed several posts commenting negatively about the company or the service itself, as well as a side discussion about the use of spell checking. Those suggestions have been heard, but take away from the concerns in this thread, which is a criticism of policy and confusion resulting from a message sent by a GM.

I have escalated several of the concerns with the messaging to the appropriate group for review and ways to improve their messaging to prevent confusion like this.

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

[Maxidelta]

"Refusal to fulfill one's job function" is basically meaning refusal to actually do anything. As in you're moving but that's about it. I would happily put that under "harassment" because you're refusing to participate.

Also notice the line "Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement.".

Not knowing the tactic does not equal not fulfilling ones job. Sorry, but it doesn't apply.

[Erepio]

snip

a) didnt say it applied to anything, i put it there to clarify that the four choice you get with vote dismiss doesnt mean u can only vote dismiss for those reasons

b) you rly need to read better..it says "example" as in pointing out 2 reasons there might be 10 others reasons that are valid

at the end of the day...its basicly a case to case basis and its comes down to the GM if ppl get punished or not

for the record its my opinion that if you do EX or Alex/Coil in DF u should watch a vid to get an idea of the fight, otherwise there 7 other ppl that you wasting the time of, if you want to go blind there is always PF, heck on my server there is LS dedicated for ppl that want to go in blind

[Dracosavarian]

Alright, I'm tired, so, I'm not going to bother quoting etc save one bit. Just too tired to even bother with that.


If anyone is wondering about my attitude, and why I am reacting so strongly, it is because in general I have a severe dislike for those who use the anonymity of the internet as an excuse to treat other human beings as someone, or something, less than you and beneath your station or time because they do not, or have not done as you would have wished them to. The world itself doesn't work that way, and if one believes it to be otherwise, well, likely disappointment will be a constant companion.

That is it, to summarize my feelings.

And I am seeing a massive amount of that in this thread from people. So yes, it gets to me. I try and treat other people with respect and dignity at all times. Something I am failing at in this thread but we all have our moments. This is just one of mine, where I am admittedly getting slightly terse. And the reason that sparks that is because I feel people just generally view this whole situation with...such...vitriol...such massive hate.

All because they come into DF, Duty finder mind you, saying something along the lines of one of two things.

1: Hey guys, New to this. Watched a video but don't remember everything. So, I might need to ask some questions.

2: Hey folks, new to this dungeon. Forgive me for asking but once we get to the bosses is it ok if I have a brief rundown so I don't wipe the party/raid?

Nowhere did I ever say " Hey, it's cool if the guy comes in not ever having done it, never asks questions, and continuously wipes the party/raid. That's on the group because...reasons. DF. Peace. "

Now, I've skimmed my replies (Bear with me, I'm tired, just got off work) and as far as I can see nowhere did I ever say the above paragraph was cool with me. Or even some remote semblance of it. Yet I have seen others imply that I have felt that someone coming in blind and saying nothing, and wiping the Party/Raid and never piping up is kosher.

It's not. Period. When you type out and they don't reply, despite all your attempts, then the kick is justified.

In fact I've had an entire FC in Crystal Tower back in the day when it was just part 1, intentionally troll and wipe the entire raid. Repeatedly. So yes, I know frustration.


Where I take issue is when people react to someone saying something along the lines of 1 or 2, and reacting very powerfully that their time is being wasted and OMG KICK THEM NOW.

And yes, I have seen this. Repeatedly. Quite often in Syrcus or World of Darkness especially. Thankfully, the group for the most part shouted those people down and voted to not kick the new player in question when said complainer brought it up. Then they helped, offered advice, and hey...look at that. Quick 2 minute explanation and everyone clears.

This is what I take issue with. This...sense of entitlement, this sense of their time being wasted. In a freaking game of all things. This sense of arrogance, where someone new comes in and genuinely asks for help and wants to learn, and is treated thoroughly like trash, dismissed as worthless, and spat upon immediately in retaliation.

And yes...this happens. A lot. And quite frankly it pisses me off to no end to see someone who is trying to learn and genuinely attempt things instead of being an outright troll or a faceroller, being treated as trash like that. All because they didn't watch a video, according to [Insert Complainer Here].

Seriously...that's petty. That's beyond petty. It truly is.

Now...as for me demonizing others...as I was told...

Difference of play style is not reportable. If you get kicked - [thats too bad]

Not that I have been, as I feel I haven't...but, when people say things like this, do I really need to even try?


On that note...I'm out.

To summarize:

Party Finder? Cool. You have a right to complain.

Duty Finder? Where it's random? A gamble on what you will get? To expect people to do as you wish in Duty Finder before you even click Join, is absolute folly.

It's a tick mark box and a random group of people thrown together, by design, to help people clear content because otherwise we'd all end up back in the days of WoW where only .1% (Exaggeration) saw Illidan.

I'll take the bumps in the road over that any day, thanks.

[Maxidelta]

snip

Which is fair enough, never seen that post before but it's vague at best. I agree with the whole "it's all down to the GM at the time". I feel that a report here will stick but who knows eh?

I feel that if you're not going to bother joining or creating a party through PF to do stuff then expect to fail in DF. Because the system favors random players going in completely blind, whereas the PF system favors those who wish to tailor their party to their needs.

It's that simple. Until there is a system that allows you to choose who you group with in DF (bear in mind you'll prob have to wait much longer) then you're going to have to suck it up I'm afraid.

[Erepio]

snip

as i said i view it as the other way around..in DF its as you said random so it has ppl that might have only 30mins to do something and wonna do it fast etc, so i feel u need to go in having an idea of the fight, heck u might even get the a**holes that wont say anything and charge ahead only to ragequit right away after 1st wipe and u have to re-enter, while you will have learned nothing...where in PF u can say u only want 1st timers, so u can go in and use the full 90mins or how long it takes to learn phase by phase

so until like SE comes in says which is which (that they will never do) it comes down to how the majority of the player base views it and ultimately how the 7 other ppl see it

btw: this is solely for EX and Alex/Coil, basicly for the "raids"

IBesides, you'd be suprised by how many people can learn on the fly and do better than some who got "carried" for their past wins

just wanted to know wth does this supose to mean?

[Reynhart]

just wanted to know wth does this supose to mean?

It means judging people skill by wether they already won or not is pretty stupid

Like one of my recent pick-up told me "You only have an i160 weapon, you can't give advice on the strat"

[Malevicton]

Here's my only complaint regarding guide use.

If when you enter the instance, are you actually wanting to run blind, or are you just gonna immediately ask "so what's the strat?" And if the latter, what's the difference between asking in chat and asking in google? The only difference I can tell is someone already posted that stuff on google specifically for people like you, whereas asking in chat is asking 7 people to take time out to explain something to you that you could easily have asked the internet and gotten a much faster and more precise answer.

[Elim]

Here's my only complaint regarding guide use.

If when you enter the instance, are you actually wanting to run blind, or are you just gonna immediately ask "so what's the strat?" And if the latter, what's the difference between asking in chat and asking in google? The only difference I can tell is someone already posted that stuff on google specifically for people like you, whereas asking in chat is asking 7 people to take time out to explain something to you that you could easily have asked the internet and gotten a much faster and more precise answer.

I think the difference is that they have to open an internet browser. An extra step.