Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Ipkonfig]

@stoxastic - It's actually phenomenal, 30% magic damage reduction every 60s is huge in a fight that is almost pure magic. Also Raw Intuition/Sheltron/Bulwark/PLD's shield are all pretty much useless in this fight. Thinking in terms of Savage mode I think your go-to tank team would be DRK MT and WAR OT.

[Ditto]

@stoxastic - It's actually phenomenal, 30% magic damage reduction every 60s is huge in a fight that is almost pure magic. Also Raw Intuition/Sheltron/Bulwark/PLD's shield are all pretty much useless in this fight. Thinking in terms of Savage mode I think your go-to tank team would be DRK MT and WAR OT.

And Reprisal, Dark Dance, and Low Blow resets are useless.

War has better mitigation for magic than Drk does, while still supporting the group. Ontop of putting out some crazy DPS if they can stance dance.

War MT, Pld OT would be the way to go. That gives Divine Veil, Clemency, and good SoO DPS. If you need Int down (8% mitigation), take a Monk, they don't come at the cost of crippling your group utility, and their DPS at the moment is easily 1000+.

[PerihVashai]

And Reprisal, Dark Dance, and Low Blow resets are useless.

War has better mitigation for magic than Drk does, while still supporting the group. Ontop of putting out some crazy DPS if they can stance dance.

War MT, Pld OT would be the way to go. That gives Divine Veil, Clemency, and good SoO DPS. If you need Int down, take a Monk, they don't come at the cost of crippling your group utility, and their DPS at the moment is easily 1000+.

Disagree, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation. The only thing Warrior has to offer is IB and Vengeance. Thrill isn't more mitigation it only serves to grant more hp/self heal. Past that point it has no mp efficiency like other CDs. I would say DRK/WAR is the best alternative personally.

If Divine Veil isn't something that is needed for the mega/teraflare mechanic then it won't really mean too much.

[spelley]

Incorrect, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation.

Also, Delirium Blade for all that magic damage (assuming you don't have a MNK)

[stoxastic]

Disagree, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation. The only thing Warrior has to offer is IB and Vengeance. Thrill isn't more mitigation it only serves to grant more hp/self heal. Past that point it has no mp efficiency like other CDs.

If Divine Veil isn't something that is needed for the mega/teraflare mechanic then it won't really mean too much.

WAR is actually really good against Perpetual as it comes out in bursts. You can Equilibrium after one comes out to heal yourself for a good chunk. You can also Infuriate + Inner beast the 2nd/3rd Perpetual to take advantage of the IB heal as well for once. DA+Dark Mind is really good here but I don't think it's miles ahead of what WAR can offer. DA+Dark Mind + Shadowskin is about as good as Inner Beast + Vengeance. As for PLD, they can also HG to easily negate once set of Perpetuals, but their mitigation against magic damage is admittedly weaker (PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

[PerihVashai]

WAR is actually really good against Perpetual as it comes out in bursts. You can Equilibrium after one comes out to heal yourself for a good chunk. You can also Infuriate + Inner beast the 2nd/3rd Perpetual to take advantage of the IB heal as well for once. DA+Dark Mind is really good here but I don't think it's miles ahead of what WAR can offer. DA+Dark Mind + Shadowskin is about as good as Inner Beast + Vengeance. As for PLD, they can also HG to easily negate once set of Perpetuals, but their mitigation against magic damage is admittedly weaker (PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

DRK can living dead the later ones as well with close to no penalty if benediction is up. IB is weaker than souleater as well. WAR is by no means miles behind but DRK is ahead, not to mention the group would benefit more by having a WAR OT DPS in this current meta.

Not really relevant slight derail:

(PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

It really depends on what your CD prioritization was if you did
1st: WAR IB/VENG PLD RAMP/SENT
2nd: Holmgang
3rd: Hallowed
4th: War IB/VENG PLD RAMP SENT
PLD is ahead at this point
5th: Holmgang, need pld to stack for the first hit though.
Needless to say this is probably the best way to do it from a CD perspective imo. However most people don’t do this nor would I trust the 5th ahkmorn to be done like that in a pug haha

edit:

Pair Thrill with a cross class Convalescence and it works exactly like another shadowskin (except it's equivalent to 17% mitigation, so it's a little weaker).

The thing about WAR is they can have SP up all the time (a little stronger than delerium, and you can have a MNK put it up) and they can have inner beast up for every tank buster. Sure inner beast only lasts 6s, but you can use it at least 3x more often than you can use DA + Dark Mind. Then, on top of that, they've got vengeance and thrill of battle+convalescence at relatively low cooldowns, so that helps too. I think this puts them on par with DRK against magical damage. I don't think it necessarily makes them *better* but it at least makes them equivalent.

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

Also just to make sure everyone's on the same page the context here is A4 and nothing else btw.

[Kiteless]

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

The point he's making is that, for the sake of eating tank busters, WAR's unique combination of conv+thrill increases eHP, allowing it to act as a form of mitigation (similar to how Defiance works), which none of the other tanks can do. Conv+thrill is nearly as effective as shadow wall in this respect, and is very definitely a mitigation tool.

[PerihVashai]

The point he's making is that, for the sake of eating tank busters, WAR's unique combination of conv+thrill increases eHP, allowing it to act as a form of mitigation (similar to how Defiance works), which none of the other tanks can do. Conv+thrill is nearly as effective as shadow wall in this respect, and is very definitely a mitigation tool.

Except for the fact that you're neglecting that Dark Knight has access to Conv so making it as a comparison against DRK is a moot point unless its increasing the potency of thrill, which it's not. The only active self heal that can KIND OF be considered mitigation really is bloodbath, and that's only because it persists. Once a self heal has been popped that's it, there is no mitigation past that point. You just equilibrium for 4k? Great it saved MP. Shadow wall just shaved off 30% and it's going to continue shaving it off. Not to mention once the perpetual ray starts adding up Shadow Wall is much more effective.

edit: Oh right maim, long day at work herp. Thanks!

[Giantbane]

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.

You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.

So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.

[PerihVashai]

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount. You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

Going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the almost. Because Grit/SOath are better from an MP efficiency perspective by roughly 5%.

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.
Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.
So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.