Page 30 of 36 FirstFirst ... 20 28 29 30 31 32 ... LastLast
Results 291 to 300 of 352
  1. #291
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,835
    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Giantbane View Post
    I like the targetting from abyssal, but just because it's different than what PLD & WAR have. Nice to have unique touches between the classes like that.
    I was actually thinking about the targeting differences while I was typing the quoted response. If they did condense them into one ability, they should just use the Abyssal targeting format where it is a PbAoE on your target.
    (0)

  2. #292
    Player
    Giantbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,534
    Character
    Adol Giantbane
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by PerihVashai View Post
    Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.
    Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.

    You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

    Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.

    So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.
    (3)

  3. #293
    Player
    PerihVashai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    62
    Character
    Bikora Chan
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Giantbane View Post
    Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount. You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.
    Going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the almost. Because Grit/SOath are better from an MP efficiency perspective by roughly 5%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantbane View Post
    Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.
    Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.
    So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.
    Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

    edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.
    (0)
    Last edited by PerihVashai; 07-11-2015 at 05:47 AM.

  4. #294
    Player
    stoxastic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    215
    Character
    Stox Diamond
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Having a 100% magic dmg boss like A4 does make DRK look like a good choice compared to PLD. If the Alex 4 Savage raid was this exact fight but with much higher damage going out, I can see DRK coming in in place of PLD, but PLD has some nice tools despite not having any physical damage going out from the boss. Shelton/Bulwark is very powerful against the quarantine add, especially when you don't have a healer to help you out. Stance dancing to Shield Oath to soak orbs feels a lot better than swapping into Defiance (since Defiance increases your max HP but awkwardly doesn't heal you for that difference). Not having to use Rage of Halone improves PLD OT dps by a lot. Divine Veil is useful against the megaflare-like move (forget the name). No matter the fight, Hallowed Ground is always good.

    It's funny how an encounter needs to be designed to completely negate one of PLD's main advantages (shield) to consider bringing in DRK as an optimal pick.
    (0)

  5. #295
    Player
    SpookyGhost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,403
    Character
    Kori Fleming
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 80
    Fun Fact Of The Day: When using Thrill + Convalescence, you actually pair it with IB. You also pair that with Vengeance, and (in the case of a physical tank buster) Raw Intuition. If tank busters are 60s apart, you can combine Thrill + Conv + IB with Raw Intuition and then IB + Vengeance for the next, repeating from here. WAR can also use Equilibrium on both of those tank busters, and Second Wind for every odd or even tank buster. On top of this, you can use IB again twice (at minimum) before needing it again for the tank buster. This varies from fight to fight obviously and not all tank busters are 60s apart, but in the case that they're shorter WAR has Raw Intuition or double IB to work with.

    Eyyy WAR actually has great mitigation, and so does PLD, and so does DRK (well, vs Magic stuff). Schlong measuring context can stop now!

    Oh, also, Thrill's increase of health is to stop you from dying (the same as all defensive CDs) by increasing your health pool to beyond the damage the tank buster will deal. You pair it with Convalescence to make it MP efficient to get you back to full. The idea of tank buster mitigation isn't necessarily how much less damage you take, just that you survive it and get back to full comfortably without costing your healer's excess mana (which you wouldn't with Thrill + Conv + IB).
    (2)
    Last edited by SpookyGhost; 07-11-2015 at 06:11 AM.

  6. #296
    Player
    Giantbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,534
    Character
    Adol Giantbane
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by PerihVashai View Post
    Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

    edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.
    Having a bigger HP pool allows you to take bigger hits, aka tank busters. The problem is that because you took a bigger hit, you need more heals to recover from it. In terms of sustained damage, the problem is that once that HP is gone, it's gone. The point, is that convalescence will completely, 100% cover that problem with thrill of battle. So when you use both together it is just as effective as pure mitigation.

    PLD & DRK can of course use Convalescence any time they need extra healing. But they don't have anything like thrill of battle to pair it with to make it function just like another mitigation cooldown. They get the increased healing throughput as a % of incoming damage, and better MP efficiency, but they don't get the eHP increase that mitigation also provides.

    Practical usage, WAR can use both together and create another strong defensive cooldown that is in line with Shadowskin or Rampart. If you're listing off abilities used for mitigation and don't list thrill, then you're selling the WAR short.
    (3)

  7. #297
    Player
    Ipkonfig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    183
    Character
    Ulfheonar Wolfhiem
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    On paper, Thrill + Conv looks like decent "mitigation" but in reality if you take a tank buster with only those two up it's going to be a big chunk of health, most likely causing an emergency reaction from your healer. Healer's emergency heals, outside of Bene, are abilities (Essential Dignity, Tetra, Lustrate) and are unaffected by Convalescence, or Defiance for that matter making them less efficient means of healing which requires your healers to spend more time/mp to boost you back up.

    And all the pairings of IB with different cooldowns insinuates you have 5 stacks of wrath ready to rock, which is possible, but would most likely require you to sit on 5 stacks till you need them which really reduces WARs potential, and using Infuriate should be done at zero stacks so you don't waste what you've already built.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ipkonfig; 07-11-2015 at 06:47 AM.

  8. #298
    Player
    Krr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    741
    Character
    Murah Jhida
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    So basically to justify taking DRK on a raid you have to not have a MNK in the group, be fighting a boss that deals primarily magical damage, is preferably but not necessarily parryable for access to reprise, and have the ot be a warrior willing to use deliverance because lmao sword oath paladins.

    However, both Paladin and Warrior can maintank these fights equally well, without the arbitrary requirement that the boss have a significant magical attack, and be fully optimal to slot in any standard 2-2-4 party composition.

    So, we've laid out the long list of arbitrary requirements needed to justify a Dark Knight in the group. What advantages does this afford the group, if any, that could not be had by replacing the Dark Knight with a Warrior or Paladin and allowing for more flexibility?
    (2)
    video games are bad

  9. #299
    Player
    Launched's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    627
    Character
    Rys Sol
    World
    Omega
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipkonfig View Post

    And all the pairings of IB with different cooldowns insinuates you have 5 stacks of wrath ready to rock, which is possible, but would most likely require you to sit on 5 stacks till you need them which really reduces WARs potential, and using Infuriate should be done at zero stacks so you don't waste what you've already built.
    It's really not hard to learn when tankbusters are coming when all the bossfights are incredibly scripted. You should have IB for every single tankbuster (either from building up Wrath or using Infuriate), and you'll still be able to pop a bunch in between tankbusters because fights were designed with a PLD's longer cooldowns in mind. Even holding onto IB for a couple of GCDs won't make a MT WAR's dps drop much.
    (0)

  10. #300
    Player
    Giantbane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,534
    Character
    Adol Giantbane
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipkonfig View Post
    Healer's emergency heals, outside of Bene, are abilities (Essential Dignity, Tetra, Lustrate) and are unaffected by Convalescence, or Defiance for that matter making them less efficient means of healing which requires your healers to spend more time/mp to boost you back up.
    Yes, this is a problem. They're already aware of the issue, hopefully they'll consider fixing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krr View Post
    So basically to justify taking DRK on a raid you have to not have a MNK in the group, be fighting a boss that deals primarily magical damage, is preferably but not necessarily parryable for access to reprise, and have the ot be a warrior willing to use deliverance because lmao sword oath paladins.

    However, both Paladin and Warrior can maintank these fights equally well, without the arbitrary requirement that the boss have a significant magical attack, and be fully optimal to slot in any standard 2-2-4 party composition.

    So, we've laid out the long list of arbitrary requirements needed to justify a Dark Knight in the group. What advantages does this afford the group, if any, that could not be had by replacing the Dark Knight with a Warrior or Paladin and allowing for more flexibility?
    I think DRK MT + WAR OT is going to be the best for magic fights since the DRK's anti-magic abilities are strong and you get the WAR's SP/SE and great DPS. So I'm anticipating the best raid setup may be to have your PLD level a DRK and swap classes based on the fight.

    I mean, I don't think this is good balance, but I think that's where it is right now for those looking to min/max.
    (0)
    Last edited by Giantbane; 07-11-2015 at 07:19 AM.

Page 30 of 36 FirstFirst ... 20 28 29 30 31 32 ... LastLast