Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Kiteless]

What I really wish (although I doubt they'd consider it) was to change abyssal drain to a strong single target, GCD move that costs only mana. Something we could work into our rotation without much (if any) DPS loss.

Right now unleash & abyssal drain are both serving the same function as "big aoe threat move". I don't think we really need them both. I would much rather unleash worked just like abyssal drain does currently (MP, damage, dark arts) except you'd also have the free procs from unmend. I don't see what having both of them is doing for us.

Bonus points for giving it some kind of useful debuff for raid utility.

But it's sort of a drastic change, I doubt that sort of thing would be on the table.

I'd be really happy with a change like that. As things are, I can pretty much use the two skills interchangeably. It's silly how similar the two skills are, and it's a great example of how poorly designed DRK's skillset is. We should want DRK's complexity to come from making choices that matter, not maneuvering through a totally pointless skill bloat.

[Faytte]

[

You just described two things Warriors have - great AOE control and high(er) DPS. They do so at no cost to utility and have equivalent or better maintanking abilities.


Yeah this is pretty much it. A tiny EHP bump, one more reliable button for anti-physical damage (even if it's just a change that makes Dark Dance not crummy and unreliable) and a reason for DRK to ever be slotted as OT over WAR or PLD will make the job competitive.

Dark has much better aoe than war. War can burst aoe but that requires stacks and a lengthy cd to redo. Overpower destroys tp. Meanwhile salt the earth is amazing and free, low cd. Unmend and abyssal drain are cheap powers that deal excellent damage.

The issue I think is mindset. Many dark cds seem weak but also have very small cds. Compare dark dance to bulwark. Sure it's half the increase but it can get a Dodge bonus, lasts a third longer and has a tiny cd. Dark mind is a second vengeance every minute. It's hard to buff a class with such low cool downs. It can go from slightly under performing to overpowered quickly due to uptime.

My guess is if they do anything it would be to buff them and increase their cds. On the other hand this might all be wrong thinking. I've done all the ex and Alexander's and the only true buster has been in a4 and it dealt magic damage

[niwaar]

While any group that is refusing you due to you being a dark for Extremes or Alexander Normal are just plain stupid, your statement:

"Sorry we want a warrior OT" or "Sorry, DRK's can't push the dps needed" AND ONE told me that due to my gear, I wasn't gonna get it unless I was a warrior cause it seems, warriors in MY gear can pull higher dps and give more to the group due to slashing debuff.

Is a serious strike against the Dark Knight as a tank. Our dps can be competitive under the right circumstances but Warriors will always out dps us as the OT. The biggest flaw in the Dark Knight tanking tool kit is simply that we do not bring anything to the group when we are the OT. A Paladin can do their Rage of Halone combo as the OT and put up the Strength Debuff. A Warrior can Storm's Eye. We have 2 debuffs. The first, Reprisal is a proc off parrying an attack. Thus useless for the OT save for minimal circumstances of cleave soaking in A3 and Ravana. Even then the debuff is the same as Storm's Path, but unlike Storm's Path can not be 100% maintained. The second debuff we can bring is Blind. Unfortunately Trial and Raid bosses are immune to Blind. Thus as a DRK we can only bring something to the group by main tanking or being talented enough to have high OT DPS (which currently is a challenge and is not probable for most players).

There are a number of small tweaks that need to happen to DRK to make it more fun and balanced to play. But, the simple fact that we bring absolutely no utility to the group while Warrior and Paladin both bring debuffs (or in the case of PLD buffs) that can change the course of an encounter.

I had high hopes for the job. But until we are actually a help and not a hindrance to the group while not MT, I am stuck leveling warrior to 60 so I am not a burden to my friends.

[Faytte]

If you want utility though, I'd expect to give up things. Paladins have no true aoe damage or real burst, so yeah they have utility and extra mitigation. Warriors and likely overturned at the moment in damage but if Alexander is an indication, SE plans to use much more magic damage in the future ergo the choice for delirium.

Also paladins have been dealing with blind immunity for years as well as pacification immunity. It stinks but this isn't new. Be great if bosses could be blinded at reduced effectiveness but SE doesn't like raid bosses missing since Titan EX.

[Krr]

Dark has much better aoe than war. War can burst aoe but that requires stacks and a lengthy cd to redo. Overpower destroys tp. Meanwhile salt the earth is amazing and free, low cd. Unmend and abyssal drain are cheap powers that deal excellent damage.

can you measure the additional party DPS produced by this 'amazing aoe'? because tanks of old weren't really having aoe threat problems to begin with

The issue I think is mindset. Many dark cds seem weak but also have very small cds.

fact check

Compare dark dance to bulwark.

compare dark dance to raw intuition, lol. don't tell me you're actually gonna get hit from behind when you're fighting a raid boss that takes up 1/4 the screen. while we're at it, point me to a buster in 3.0 that can actually be evaded

Dark mind is a second vengeance every minute.

against less than half the attacks in the game right now, and less than a quarter of the busters in the game r/n

I seriously don't know how we can make 'uptime' as a serious argument for DRK cooldowns when inner beast exists and paladins have almost no gaps between their cooldown availability if played correctly

Every dark knight cooldown except dark mind is longer than, or equivalent to its counterparts present in other tanks. even dark dance has identical uptime to raw intuition yet is worse in every way except for trash pulls.

This all neglects that drk has no 100% uptime physical damage debuff like halone or storm's, less EHP than paladins, with their access to blockrate, and warriors, with their significantly higher raw HP, meaning that in addition to having shoddy, unreliable physical mitigation in the form of dark dance, dark knight is also missing something like 20% of the other tanks' passive EHP overall

The only argument I can honestly make in DRK's favor is that dark arts souleater is an almost-reliable way to get a 20% refund on most busters you'll eat except that won't stop you from dying if the damage you took exceeds your current HP and it can and will screw with your healer's perception of how much HP you actually have. Except, you know, again, that's just a poor man's inner beast

so what are dark knights gaining for this measurable disadvantage in maintanking, total lack of party utility, and inferior MT/OT DPS to Warriors? aoe damage that they can't even use 1/3 of the time because it'll run them out of MP if they do? the ability to not take damage from trash pulls in speedruns? woo-hoo. real competitive raiding job there.

congratulations, you can replace half of what a monk brings to a party in exchange for battle hymn and trick attack. except you either gave up your paladin and became the MT (enjoy your healers screaming in panic every time a savage boss so much as breathes on you,) or you replaced the warrior because apparently your static leader is literally insane and thinks "not needing a monk" is worth giving up a permanent 10% damage debuff, like 10% bonus DPS for your ninja, and FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEA

Also paladins have been dealing with blind immunity for years as well as pacification immunity.

paladins also have five cooldowns that work every time you use them instead of "when the game decides they should work" and "against those two whole endgame bosses that deal significant amounts of magic damage to the tank"

paladins didn't have an entire defensive cooldown balanced around the fact that they could blind enemies to improve it

paladins aren't required to pacify enemies in order to get damage reduction that is competitive to other tanks

[Aerya]

The main problem with DRK is that some of them are just stupid. Last night, as a ilvl 160~ PLD, I tanked the Singularity Reactor with a DRK, undergeared compared to me. He spent all the fight in Grit, just beside me, and tried to take aggro all along, just spamming his aggro combo (and nothing else). He took, of course, all the cleave hits and Dragon's Gaze. And he turned off the Grit (but not the Darkside) when the boss dissapeared for the AOE phase.

As a lvl 53 DRK, I can understand why we're not welcome when I see some people playing DRK like that. And at lvl 60, so he wasn't a noob tank anymore...

[Kiteless]

The main problem with DRK is that some of them are just stupid. Last night, as a ilvl 160~ PLD, I tanked the Singularity Reactor with a DRK, undergeared compared to me. He spent all the fight in Grit, just beside me, and tried to take aggro all along, just spamming his aggro combo (and nothing else). He took, of course, all the cleave hits and Dragon's Gaze. And he turned off the Grit (but not the Darkside) when the boss dissapeared for the AOE phase.

As a lvl 53 DRK, I can understand why we're not welcome when I see some people playing DRK like that. And at lvl 60, so he wasn't a noob tank anymore...

I, and most others, have seen bad players of every class. People not knowing how to play DRK is not the problem. Most of the people making complaints in this thread know how to play DRK, but we still are significantly disadvantaged despite that.

[Kaedan]

I, and most others, have seen bad players of every class. People not knowing how to play DRK is not the problem. Most of the people making complaints in this thread know how to play DRK, but we still are significantly disadvantaged despite that.

"Significantly" disadvantaged? No, not at all.

Slightly disadvantaged? Yes, that's true. People are making a mountain out of a mole hill. There are certainly improvements that can be made to DRK. But that's true of all the new jobs. It's far better for a developer to start a class off underpowered and have to buff them than to start them overpowered and have to nerf them. "The Masses" respond far better to buffs than nerfs.

[Aerya]

I, and most others, have seen bad players of every class. People not knowing how to play DRK is not the problem. Most of the people making complaints in this thread know how to play DRK, but we still are significantly disadvantaged despite that.

I agree my DRK is disadvantaged compared to my PLD, but not enough to make it refused in runs. I know a lot of people who sigh when they are with a DRK in a run, because it's the class with the most bad players right now. New class + new role is too much to learn for some people. The DRK reputation will get better when it will get a few buffs and adjustments (TP management for example), but also when the new "DRK looks so dark and cool" tanks learn their role or give up (and it already started).

[Alphras]

...

Just to get some things straight:
- PLD, DRK and WAR have exactly the same eHP outside of buffs with WAR being the most difficult to heal up again (all healing abilities are currently not affected by Defiance and heals in general are less efficient). Calculating eHP with buffs is pointless and completely fight dependant.
- PLD also has two unique cooldowns that only work against physical damage with bulwark being unreliable vs tank busters. WAR has one for physical. DRK has a unreliable one for physical and a really strong one for magical damage.
- Alexander 4 only deals magic damage to the MT, we will see how that translates into relevant content.

DRK has a really solid tanking toolset with Shadowskin, Shadow Wall and Dark Mind IF Square keeps using Magic Damage in new encounters. They should get some changes to their OT toolset, but that was discussed ad nauseam.