Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Faytte]

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

Neither did I, but you mentioned a shortness of one power, which a general power counter acts. Tell me--what of my points included general powers...?

Right..none..i brought up awarness up in regards to -ONE- power, you meanwhile skipped Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, two immensly important cooldowns..why?

[Kaedan94]

you meanwhile skipped Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, two immensly important cooldowns..why?

See my note to Giantbane. They are healing. I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

[Xenosan]

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT. In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

In that case, the WAR has far less mitigation than a DRK, and is thus a bad MT.

[2o,ooo HP WAR vs 14,ooo HP DRK] Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

Alright, let's refocus: move the goal post:
...
If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

You won't get passed this STR vs VIT thing.

Excess VIT is a waste - maximize your EHP via other means - like your CDs. It's why people substitute VIT for STR - it's min/maxing the job - avoiding redundancies. ALEX NM today, went DRK 14ooo with Party VIT bonus.. MT'd everything just dandy. F2 - Higher DPS than MNK and BRD - ok I lied - I didn't MT F2 - THX, PLD buddy! (BRD may have died without my knowing, I can't understand why he parsed so low - ACT not registering WM damage after patch maybe?). F3 my DRK beat that aforementioned 20k HP WAR by over 120 DPS (And I was the MT!). Was *he the better tank cuz he had 20ooo HP vs my 14ooo? No! And I'm not foolish enough to think *I am awesome for beating him out like that, or that DRK is OP. No, all that parse tells me is he's lazy or watching Netflix while raiding. Point being he wasn't willing to min/max his job to it's fullest potential.

But by your logic he makes the better tank and is the shining example everyone should strive for.

Since day one of early access these 'cd' = 'cd' have been ugh.. false equivalencies.. lack of context.. Many game first competitors role with STR-hinged WAR MTs (DPS checks are a thing), absolutely no reason to have to prove their worth to you. It's DRK that's in limbo - we'll see what happens come (Savage) when i170/i180 gear won't be enough to carry casually through.

I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

And then the bait and dodge. Things like this are why your comparisons aren't holding water.

[Giantbane]

See my note to Giantbane. They are healing. I didn't include them because we were talking about mitigation, and DRK has plenty of self-healing too, just like WAR.

I've already explained numerous times why thrill of battle is an important cooldown, just like shadowskin, inner beast, vengeance, and everything else you did include on the list. I have no idea why you find this so difficult to understand.

[Agrieus]

I'd say between Vengeance and Shadow wall, Vengeance is certainly better (without a doubt)...but also keep in mind that the 30% that shadow wall gives is doesn't include the 20% multiplier that Grit already does....and in the case of Defiance, War DOES get the hp boost, but a lot of warriors these days don't really stack Vit on their accessories so the HP bonus from Defiance isn't being used to it's full potential which is holding it's usefulness back a bit (sometimes by a lot). But it's however you guys look at it. I myself have started to come around to really enjoying how Drk plays but some tanks just work better in certain situations. For instance, I'd rather run Drk for A1 over my Pld because the overall dps *while in tanking stance* is higher than it is with Pld (and by a respectable amount). I haven't had any issues with keeping up with partner warrior dps (while both of us are tanking) and in most cases I've been ahead in overall dps (again, while both are tanking...otherwise the War would win every time). With A2, however, I'd rather run my Pld because tanking 2 dolls and adds with him is much easier than it is with War and Drk (thanks to the use of great things like HG and more reliable overall mitigation). I've also found a way to burst 10k+ damage in around 5 seconds against the striking dummy with my Drk without the use of any party buffs/debuffs (and this is also without the use of Blood Weapon). Not sure how other warriors are looking, but my friend's warrior takes a little longer to hit that 10k mark so he can build up those stacks to max out his Fell Cleaves. Once he gets going he'll still surpass me in overall DPS once he's got his stacks/buffs built up, but a 5 second 10k burst from a tank isn't too bad at all. It's rather nice having all those OGC moves. I'm currently building up my War now because I'd like to have all 3 tanks for different fights....but as it stands, I'm pretty content with how each tank job plays. Sure, Drk could use some slight tweaking here and there (it IS a new job, after all)...but I don't have issues running it anymore and I don't see it as broken. It seems to me that people just haven't gotten to the point to where they're comfortable with how the job plays yet and are just more comfortable with the tanks we already had. It also seems to me that most are more focused on the theory crafts that have been put out and less on practicing how the Job could/should be used in combat.

[Launched]

Huge wall of cooldowns

Sure, DRK's cooldowns don't look bad if you compare them 1:1, but that's not how WAR tanks. WAR has IB for every single tankbuster, on top of one of their other cooldowns (Vengeance, Thrill, Equilibrium, Raw Intuition). They're effectively stronger than all of DRK's cooldowns.

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

You can easily compare Foresight/Convalescence/Awareness because each tank has different cooldowns to use them with. On DRK/PLD, you can't use any of those three to mitigate a tankbuster. You need to use them with one of your big cooldowns. A WAR can use them with IB, giving them 20% mitigation and the extra effect from the weaker skill, and then they'll still have their stronger cooldowns like Vengeance.

Heals like Bloodbath, Path, IB, Souleater, Clemency etc. aren't great for mitigating incoming damage because they're either gated behind the GCD or are pretty weak. Thrill of Battle increases your max HP AND heals you, so by using that you're effectively losing a smaller percentage of your max HP. Equilibrium is off-GCD and pretty strong, so you can use IB to reduce incoming damage and then Equilibrium for a quick burst of healing. For example on Ravana Ex, reduce Blinding Blade by 20% (18k to 14.6k) and then heal for another 3.5k immediately after the hit.

I'd say between Vengeance and Shadow wall, Vengeance is certainly better (without a doubt)...but also keep in mind that the 30% that shadow wall gives is doesn't include the 20% multiplier that Grit already does....and in the case of Defiance, War DOES get the hp boost, but a lot of warriors these days don't really stack Vit on their accessories so the HP bonus from Defiance isn't being used to it's full potential which is holding it's usefulness back a bit (sometimes by a lot).

Grit and Defiance do effectively the same thing. A WAR with Defiance+Vengeance will lose the same amount of their eHP as a DRK with Grit/Shadow Wall. The 20% from Grit is completely ignoreable.

And why would you assume a WAR is using STR accessories all the time? If you're going to compare how effective they are at tanking, you should always assume identical gear.

[Kalma51]

People trying to say Drk is just fine really don't know anything about the class. Sure Drk isn't terrible or isn't Warrior 2.0 bad, but they far from what War / Pld is right now. War / Pld tools are far better in just about all aspects.

Below are ability lists so you can compare without needing to do a bunch of research, and come to a better understanding of how all three tanks stack up to each other.

I can't even compare the aspects for this as being remotely even, well lets start with Defensive capabilities? Not going to cover cross class skills with this.

Pld = Shield Oath -1GCD- Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Shelton -30s- Blocks the next physical attack for 10s. Additional Effect: Partial MP restored upon block (restores 707 MP at lv 60), Better Def and less Cd then our Carve and Spit.
Divine Veil -150s- Upon next HP recovery via healing magic cast by a party member, a protective barrier is cast on all party members within 15y for 30s.
Barrier Effect: Prevents damage up to 10% of PLD's max HP for 30s. Drk / War don't have anything like that.
Clemency -1GCD (MP 2121)- Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 1200 - Additional Effect: Restores to self 50% of HP restored to target if target is a party member.
Rampart -90s- Reduces damage taken by 20% for 20s.
Convalescence -120s- Increases HP restored by spells or actions by 30%.
Awareness -120s- Nullifies the chance of suffering critical damage for 25s
Sentinel -180s- Reduces damage taken by 40% for 10s.
Bulwark -180s- Increases block rate by 60% for 15s. (Which block is so much better then parry)

War = Defiance -10s- Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
2% Parry per stack (5 total)
Raw Intuition -90s- Parries all attacks taken from the front for 20s. All attacks taken from the flank or rear will result in critical damage.
Equilibrium -60s- Restores own HP when used with Defiance. Cure Potency: 1200. Restores 200 TP when used with Deliverance. (All tanks should have a form of this)
Bloodbath -90s- Converts 25% of the damage dealt by next successful offensive ability into HP - Buff duration: 30 sec.
Foresight -90s- Increases defense by 20% for 20 sec. (nothing special)
Vengeance -120s- Reduces damage taken by 30% and delivers an attack with a potency of 50 every time you suffer physical damage for 15s
Thrill of Battle -120s- Increases maximum HP by 20% and restores the amount increased for 20s.
Inner Beast -1GCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Ignores the 25% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Additional Effect: Absorb 100% of damage dealt as HP Additional Effect: Reduces
damage taken by 20%

Drk = Grit -1GCD (MP Cost 1300+)- Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Shadowskin -90s- Reduces damage taken by 20%. Duration: 20s
Dark Dance -60s (MP Cost 1768)- Increases parry rate by 30%. Can only be executed while succumbing to the Darkside. Duration: 20s - Dark Arts Effect: Evasion increased by 20%
Dark Mind -60s (Mp Cost 1768)- educes magic vulnerability by 15%. Can only be used when succumbing to the Darkside. Duration: 10s. Dark Arts Effect: Increase magic vulnerability reduction to 30%.
Shadow Wall -180s- Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 10s

Now this is only what each class has base without cross class CDs. Soooooooo

Pld = 8 CDs / Cross = 10 Cds
War = 7 Cds / Cross = 10 Cds
Drk = 4 Cds / Cross = 7 Cds

Pld / War even out quite well but Drk is 3 Cds short. Having a Pld tank stance without a shield for added Mitigation, kinda hinders Drk. Case and point is that Drk just isn't as good nor ever will be as good as Pld / War until those issues are fixed. (Stance and Cds)

This is only the Defensive side of the issue.

Now for dps potential: This is mainly for single target!

Pld = Sword Oath -1GCD- Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 50. (quite powerful)
Goring Blade combo -3GCD- 920 potency / Mp regen (Takes 24sec to achieve this potency)
Royal Authority combo -3GCD- 690 potency / enmity combo
Rage of Halone combo -3GCD- 610 potency / enmity / Utility combo (-10% str on target)
Circle of Scorn -25s- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies. Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 30 (combined total potency of 250 per target).
Fight or Flight -90s- Increases physical damage dealt by 30% for 30s. (33% up time)
Mercy Stroke -90s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.

War = Deliverance -10s- Increases damage dealt by 5%. 2% Crit Rate per stack (5 stacks)
Storm's Eye combo -3GCD- 610 potency / 20% dmg up / 10% slash resistance down / 50% reduced healing (so gets more powerful then what the potency would say)
Storm's Path combo -3GCD- 590 potency (again 20% more dmg / 10% slash resist down so more powerful then potency tells) 50% dmg done heal / -10% dmg from target
Butcher's Block combo -3GCD- 630 potency / enmity combo
Fracture -90s-Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Damage over time with potency of 20 for 30s- potency 300
Fell Cleave -9GCD (or with Infuriate every 60s)- Delivers an attack with a potency of 500.
Brutal Swing -20s oGCD- potency 50 / Stuns for 3sec
Berserk -90s- Increases attack power by 50% for 20s. Unable to use weapon skills for 5 seconds after effect fades.
Mercy Stroke -40s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%
Internal Release -60s- Increases critical hit rate by 20% for 15s.

Drk = Darkside -5s (MP 443)- MP is slowly drained while increasing damage dealt by 15%. MP refreshing statuses have no effect.
Souleater combo -3GCD (MP cost if DA used 1768)- 660 potency normal / 800 potency with DA / MP regen
Delirium combo -3GCD- 680 potency / MP regen / -10% Int on target
Power Slash -3GCD (MP cost if DA used 1768)- 670 potency / enmity combo / boosted enmity with DA
Scourge -1GCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Damage over time with a Potency of 40 for 18s (30s with trait) (combined total potency of 500 with trait)
Low Blow -25s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Stun Duration: 5s Additional Effect: 30% chance that next parry will reset the recast timer
Salted Earth -45s oGCD- Creates a patch of salted earth, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 75 to any enemies who enter. Duration: 21s (combined total potency of 525 per target)
Plunge -30s oGCD- Delivers a jumping attack with a potency of 200.
Carve and Spit -60s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Also restores MP if used while not under the effect of Dark Arts. Dark Arts Potency: 450
Blood Weapon -40s- Increases attack speed by 10% and converts physical damage dealt into MP. Duration: 15s
Mercy Stroke -90s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.

Now it may seem like Pld doesn't bring much to the table on the lack of abilites, but there pure potency and stance / buffs are powerful. Making them very consistant, on the other hand War / Drk seem quite similar. Not close really if you get down to it.

War has a very fuild rotation and great buff uptime to further increase there deadly tool kit. Out of the 3 tanks they have highest burst hands down. Probably best OT in game considered by most, even though I think Pld can make them work for that title.

Drk has on paper quite a great dps tool kit (until you release MP is a pain in the ass to manage along with TP), but in practice it is clunky and not effective really. Button bloat is more trouble causing then helpful. DA is clunky and punishes you more then helps. While Drk on paper shows them to be quite powerful and consistent for dps, in reality this isn't the case at all.

I really hope this shows the overall short comings of the Drk class, and people can now better address the issue with knowledge at hand.

[Kalma51]

Sorry if I missed anything in my post above, at work atm with a major migraine. So forgive me for any mistakes.

[Faytte]

Defiance and grit are the same thing. Not sure why you think grit multiplies into other cool downs better than Defiance. This is false, blows hitting you do the same percent damage of your total life pool, therfore cds behave the same. When a war and drk in tank stance pop - 30% damage buffs, it effects them the very same.

[BadRNG]

In this case, DRK and WAR are more or less equal. WAR has some slight benefits in areas, and a lack in others compared to DRK. However, if the WAR chooses to Stance Dance, the advantage goes to the DRK, due to losing the 25% max HP mitigation every time (which has to be healed back).

If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

The thing is they don't actually lack in any areas - by your own list they are better or equal on every cooldown but Dark Mind, and as others have said you could very easily compare IB to it as well. IB is just plain better than anything DRK has, due to both it's very powerful effect as well as it's short (effective) cooldown. You can have it up for every tank buster. That's essentially like DRK having Shadowskin up for every big hit, something that is obviously quite impossible.

If he stance dances, or wears str accessories, or if he decides to tank naked - these are all scenarios where DRK might be sturdier. They are also completely irrelevant as you always compare classes on the basis of equal gear and skill. A DRK could also be wearing STR accessories, or stance dancing, or tanking naked. That's not some unique thing that only WAR does. I have no idea why you keep bringing these scenarios up as if it speaks to the overall balance of the jobs.