Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Giantbane]

It's so amusing when people have to resort to insults because they don't have a rational counter-argument.

Sort of like people who just repeat their opinion as fact over and over again with nothing to back it up?

[Ditto]

It's so amusing when people have to resort to insults because they don't have a rational counter-argument.

Great. And DRKs have Soul Eater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survior... what of it?

Inner Beast.

(Abyssal Drain, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL you best be tanking a mountain of trash)

Equilibrium.

See I can list cd's too

Sole Survivor is limited to a static 20%, and CANNOT be used unless a mob dies close enough for you to put it on it, and within the 15 seconds the skill stays applied for. Oh, and a 120 second cd vs. the 60 second cd of equilibrium.

Great. And DRKs have Dark Mind, what of it?

Can I take "What is Inner Beast" for 500?

Sure, Dark Mind is awesome, but why would you even try to raise a counter argument against the inability to use Reprisal, with that? Can I take "What is Storms Path 100% uptime" for 1000?

It's so amusing when people have to resort to insults because they don't have a rational counter-argument.

And no, it's more of the amount of nonsense you're posting all over the place, not even on this topic alone, is almost humerus. No matter how logical and factual the counter argument someone brings up against anything you, you try to counter with some chopped up, irrelevant comparison that is incredibly bias and is full of holes. Your reply there only proves that. It's tiring to even think of how to reply to the crap you're saying, because you're all over the place.

You can tell you're in the tanking forum when everyone is so defensive about their job.

Eh? Eh?

Good god I needed that, 10/10 I actually laughed.

[Kaedan94]

Sort of like people who just repeat their opinion as fact over and over again with nothing to back it up?

Yeah, I know. I really do hate that too. Insisting you are right about something without rationally explaining is pointless.

Yes, yes, you don't need to respond with some less-than-witty statement about me missing the point of your post. I'm well aware it was a weak attempt of a jab at me. Luckily it so happens that I "backed up" every statement I made, so your vitriol missed it's mark by a mile.

Can I take "What is Inner Beast" for 500?
Sure, Dark Mind is awesome, but why would you even try to raise a counter argument against the inability to use Reprisal, with that? Can I take "What is Storms Path 100% uptime" for 1000?

Do you even bother to read, or you just like to make less-than-witty attacks at people and change the subject and conditions of the argument?

Your statement was "Reprisal doesn't affect magic attacks"... and I pointed out that we have Dark Mind to make up for that.

[Giantbane]

Yeah, I know. I really do hate that too. Insisting you are right about something without rationally explaining is pointless.

Yes, yes, you don't need to respond with some less-than-witty statement about me missing the point of your post. I'm well aware it was a weak attempt of a jab at me. Luckily it so happens that I "backed up" every statement I made, so your vitriol missed it's mark by a mile.

For instance, the following:

A 20k HP WAR (in Defiance) vs a 16k DRK in Grit are roughly equal.

You keep saying this, but you haven't backed this up at all. Hell, it took a while for you to actually accept that this was an important comparison that should be made.


In fact, I'm having difficulty finding a point you've made in this thread that you've actually backed up. Most (all) of your arguments have big holes in them. When they're pointed out, you sort of gloss over the fact, and pretend it didn't happen.

[Ditto]

Do you even bother to read, or you just like to make less-than-witty attacks at people and change the subject and conditions of the argument?

Your statement was "Reprisal doesn't affect magic attacks"... and I pointed out that we have Dark Mind to make up for that.

So basically what you're saying is, to make up for a 10% damage debuff to all damage done, raid wide, we have a self buff on a 10 second duration, and 60 second cooldown. (15% regular, 30% Dark Arts)

Uhuh.


Mhmm..


I see..


Quite..


Very Well.


You'd almost think that they were 2 different types of abilities, 1 that works to minimize damage received for your entire group, and one that works only for yourself. Then the other somewhere out there that has a 100% uptime and can be applied no matter the situation.

[Kaedan94]

Alright, let's refocus:

DRK:

-Grit: "Permanent" 20% Damage reduction
-Shadowskin: 20% Damage reduction for 20s every 90s
-Dark Dance: +30% chance to Parry for 20s every 60 seconds
-Dark Mind: 30% Magic damage reduction for 10s every 60 seconds
-Shadowwall: 30% damage reduction for 10s every 180 seconds
-Living Dead: "Invulnerability" for 10s, contingent upon having an amount of healing equal to your Max HP applied during that 10s. Every 300s
-Reprisal: 10% damage debuff for 20s every 30s (yes, unless the target doesn't use any physical attacks, you can activate it reliably every 30s)
-Delirium: 10% INT Debuff for 20s potentially indefinitely.

WAR:
-Defiance: 25% increase to max HP
-Holmgang: "Invulnerability" for 6s, but cannot move. Every 180s. Still need to be healed to safe levels before 6s is up (essentially same as DRK).
-Inner Beast: 20% damage reduction for 6s every 15-20 seconds IF planned for.
-Raw Intuition: 100% parry from front only for 20s every 90s.
-Vengeance: 30% damage reduction for 15s every 120s.
-Storm's Path: 10% damage debuff for 20s potentially indefinitely.


So, if a WAR uses VIT accessories:

-Grit = Defiance
-Shadowskin < Inner Beast
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash)
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks)
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compare

In this case, DRK and WAR are more or less equal. WAR has some slight benefits in areas, and a lack in others compared to DRK. However, if the WAR chooses to Stance Dance, the advantage goes to the DRK, due to losing the 25% max HP mitigation every time (which has to be healed back).

If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

You keep saying this, but you haven't backed this up at all. Hell, it took a while for you to actually accept that this was an important comparison that should be made.

What are you talking about? o.O

I backed it up in every post I said it in. A 20k WAR (in Defiance) is the same level of mitigation as a 16k DRK (in Grit). That's about a 20% difference in HP and Grit grants a 20% reduction, so they roughly equal. And I never had a problem accepting that max HP% increase results in the same eHP as the equivalent Damage Reduction. What you continuously didn't seem to understand is that I was comparing WARs with 16k HP to DRKs with 16k HP. In that case, if the WAR has that 16k with Defiance on, they have a huge mitigation disadvantage compared to a DRK, because the DRK still has the 20% Grit reduction on top of his HP which is the same.

[Giantbane]

-Shadowskin < Inner Beast
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash)
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks)
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compare

You left out thrill of battle. If you pair it with convalescence, it's just like shadowskin or rampart except it's on a 2min cooldown.

And Inner Beast is so much better than Shadowskin that you might as well say:

Inner Beast > Shadowskin AND Delerium AND Dark Mind

I don't see how the DRK wins at anything on its own. It's only potential saving grace is that reprisal stacks with storm's path. But it's still somewhat unreliable and requires a WAR OT.

[Faytte]

Alright, let's refocus:
-Grit = Defiance
-Shadowskin < Inner Beast
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash)
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks)
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compare

-Grit = Defiance True
-Shadowskin < Inner Beast True
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often False. Awarness on side targets, you can have 1-3 smaller adds on you that are still in the front arc. More than that and you pop awarness (or dont care since that many targets are unlikely to be clipping you that hard?)
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare False. Inner Beast. They can have it up for every important buster. If you are worried about none busters--then calling about cd's are kind of irrelevant?
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)False, its far better--it gives a damage reflect which is amazing in mass pools and a stack of wrath toward another IB or Cyclone. Given IB is mitigation, that is relevant.
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash) False--but ish. Holmgang has a very better CD and a root effect which has some (but limited) uses.
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks) True, but not a slight advantage--not at all a slight advantage. You can have 100% uptime on Storms Path, and can use it as an off tank
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compareTrue, but largely irrelevant

Things you missed

-Thrill of Battle: Instant 25% heal or 25% buffer depending on how you want to use it. Amazing.
-Equilibrium: Instant super heal! Works off berserk if it happens to be up! Amazing ^_^

You cherry pick arguments quite a bit it looks like? Its kind of funny to see ^_^

[Kaedan94]

Ironically, a bunch of cherry picked crap. Interesting you accuse me of it.

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

[Giantbane]

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.

@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

Mitigation is two things. First, it increases your eHP. This lets you take more damage before you die. This is pretty obvious. Second, mitigation means you require less healing to recover from those hits. If you are hit by a 2000 point hit with grit on, you only take 1600 hp of damage. Thus it takes 1600 hp worth of heals to restore the damage lost to that hit. We've already covered this with Grit vs. Defiance.

Now when you take thrill of battle, this will increase your eHP, and you cast convalescence at the same time, it reduces the amount you need to be healed. The effect, is very mathematically close to what rampart or shadowskin does (~17% vs. 20%). So for all intents and purposes, you can use these two abilities *together* and it will work almost as good as shadowskin.

It's not that DRK & PLD can't use convalescence, it's that they don't have an ability like thrill of battle to pair it with.