Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Lorielle]

People are idiots. Just they need a TANK's DPS to TRY and meet the DPS check. The DPS need to be replaced, get better gear, or just in general get good.

[Slappah]

People are idiots. Just they need a TANK's DPS to TRY and meet the DPS check. The DPS need to be replaced, get better gear, or just in general get good.

Or....they balance encounters with tank dps in mind because....spoiler alert: tanks do damage too

[Kiteless]

Or....they balance encounters with tank dps in mind because....spoiler alert: tanks do damage too

Yes, it's become pretty obvious now that the dev mindset has really changed to include tank DPS as a major part of any given encounter's set of standards. We can't just go into zombie mode once we have a strong aggro lead during DPS checks anymore.

[Alphras]

Or....they balance encounters with tank dps in mind because....spoiler alert: tanks do damage too

That is true, but if you can't meet the dps check the fact that you have a DRK in your party is not the reason.

[Lorielle]

Or....they balance encounters with tank dps in mind because....spoiler alert: tanks do damage too

As others have replied before me, I'm not saying the tank's DPS isn't important. But if this is becoming a IMPORTANT factor in meeting a -DPS- check, then you need to take a hard look at the setup and the players. Delorean pretty much explained the point that I was trying to get across in a much smaller straightforward version.

[Kiteless]

Thing is, when you're struggling to muscle through that content with a team of bad pugs, there's really only one person who's performance you can control, and that is your own. And while, as a tank, you shouldn't have to be responsible for making up that difference, the ability to do so goes a long way towards surviving through the trial and protecting your own sanity.

And from the perspective of someone who might be considering that possibility in creating a party, having a tank who can make up for an under performing DPS would be in their interests for the same, obvious reasons. And to that extent, since DRK offers nothing to make up for that difference in performance, the solution of the party's ideal composition is simple.

[Kiteless]

Comparing WAR and DRK mitigation:

1. Inner Beast: 20% reduction (also provides a 100% HP conversion rate as an extra effect). Usable pretty much every 15 seconds for 6 seconds at a time, with Infuriate allowing for more frequent use.

2. Vengeance: Strictly better than any mitigation skill that DRK has. Offers a shorter cooldown than Shadow Wall, with the same mitigation and a longer duration, a damaging secondary effect, and application of wrath stacks.

3. Raw intuition: 20% physical damage reduction from the front with a solid 20 second duration on a 90 second cooldown.

4. Storm's Path: 10% damage reduction with 50% HP conversion rate that is easy to keep up at all times when necessary, with no requirement other than being in a combo (that refreshes your 20% damage boost). Utility move that can be used from an OT or MT situation, if needed.

5. Holmgang: TO THE LAST, I GRAPPLE WITH THEE! 6 seconds of not dying. No Hallowed Ground, but it gets the job done.

This is in addition to Defiance, which grants a 25% health increase *in addition to a 20% increase in healing*. There's also the parry buff which increases with Wrath stacks, not particularly huge, but worth noting at least. While this isn't strictly mitigation in itself, it is a clear increase in EHP for when it's needed. Additionally, being off the GCD makes stance dancing not only a breeze, but encouraged for optimal usage in all forms.

DRK has:

1. Grit: Tank stance, 20% damage reduction. Its ridiculous MP cost and being on the GCD sucks, but it does what it needs to. Stance dancing is hard to properly encourage, since the MP cost makes it hard to justify switching back and forth, even with regen from Blood Weapon, and being on the GCD makes the actual switch without a DPS loss difficult.

2. Shadowskin: This is a reskinned rampart, 20% reduction, 20 seconds every 90. Good skill.

3. Shadow Wall: As noted above, this suffers from being the worst of everything between PLD and WAR cooldowns. WAR level mitigation, shorter duration, no secondary bonus, 180 second cooldown. Sucks, but we use it because we have nothing better.

4. Dark Mind: 15% magic damage reduction, 30% if using Dark Arts. Costly under DA, but extremely effective against magic tankbusters with a surprisingly short cooldown. The main problem is that most tank busters tend to be physical. That said, not bad.

5. Reprisal: 10% damage reduction, only applicable after a parry, meaning it can't be used against enemies that rely on purely magical damage (Ramuh) and only during an extremely short window. Should not be relied upon.

6. Living Dead: Similar to Holmgang, except you can cast it in advance, and it lasts a good bit longer. Major downside, in addition to have a way longer cooldown, however, is that once activated, it requires heavy healer attention to avoid dying, defeating a lot of its supposed utility as an "oh shit" button. Furthermore, in order to not die after its use, you must be healed for exactly your full amount of health. Because the skill leaves you with 1HP, you will die, even if you are healed to full. You must sustain further damage after Walking Dead activates so that it can be healed. This makes Living Dead not only incredibly unreliable, but also punishes smart play.

Dark Dance does not count as a viable damage mitigation skill outside of trash mobs, since it is in no way reliable (and 30% parry rate on a cooldown is terrible anyway). Dark Arts version should not be used because it is not only not reliable, but also interacts poorly with other skills, preventing their application. And with Living Dead, that evasion rate can end up killing you.
As for Delirium, if that 10% Int debuff is really that important, just get a MNK to do it for you.

So, if you're going to go out of your way to not include Defiance's HP increase as the quasi-mitigation skill and include Dark Dance as one (at which point, you might as well include lolForesight), DRK might have two more mitigation skills than WAR, but WAR's are substantially better, and capable of being kept up far more often, for a longer period of time, and far more reliably. It also doesn't count the inclusion of Equilibrium, which provides a stronger effect than DRK's closest equivalent, Sole Survivor, with half the cooldown time and no prerequisite for activation, and doesn't need to be applied in advance, allowing you to use it on demand.


Reprisal is the only mitigation skill that would be notable from DRK's point of view as a main tank, but it's unreliable for the purposes of mitigating tank busters, thanks to its extremely short activation period and parry requirement meaning you can't save it and guarantee its use when it's likely to be the most valued, and thus is not worth considering for the purposes of MT utility.

[Daerthalus]

Defiance: Tank Stance, 25% health increase *in addition to a 20% increase in healing*.
Grit: Tank stance, 20% damage reduction.

I 100% agree. The 20% increased healing along with 25% bonus health results in essentially similar 'toughness'. I decline to use the word mitigation b.c. Defiance does not reduce the amount of damage you take, expect for the minor Parry increase.

Take the following example:

10,000 Damage HIT after Defense
10,000 Base HP
Ignore Parry

Dark Knight:
-10% Debuff @ 67% Uptime = 6.7% Reduced Damage
10000 * (0,933) * (0.80) = 7464
10000 - 7464 = 2536 HP Remaining
Healing Required: 7464 HP

Warrior:
-10% Debuff @ 100% uptime
10000 * (0.9) * 1 = 9000
10000 *125% - 9000 = 3500 HP
Healing Required: 9,000 / 120% = 7500 HP

The two classes require almost the same amount of healing to offset the same hit. The warrior's mitigation is lower but the increased healing and hp offset a large portion of it.

[Kiteless]

For what it's worth, and why I didn't consider Defiance for the sake of "mitigation" in this case, Defiance's HP gains are lost each time you end up switching over to Deliverance. Now, good WARs should know when and when not to switch between these stances, mitigating the loss in "switched HP" almost entirely, but I'm going to give WAR benefit of the doubt in order to come from the worst possible situation here.

If we include Defiance as something along the same lines as Grit for these purposes, and make the assumption that the WAR is able to keep it up whenever it's needed, and that the healers have no trouble keeping him topped off after any given switch (assuming one is made), then WAR absolutely obliterates DRK when it comes to defensive values. It goes from a losing contest for DRK, to something that can't even fairly be considered comparable.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

For what it's worth, and why I didn't consider Defiance for the sake of "mitigation" in this case, Defiance's HP gains are lost each time you end up switching over to Deliverance. Now, good WARs should know when and when not to switch between these stances, mitigating the loss in "switched HP" almost entirely, but I'm going to give WAR benefit of the doubt in order to come from the worst possible situation here.

If we include Defiance as something along the same lines as Grit for these purposes, and make the assumption that the WAR is able to keep it up whenever it's needed, and that the healers have no trouble keeping him topped off after any given switch (assuming one is made), then WAR absolutely obliterates DRK when it comes to defensive values. It goes from a losing contest for DRK, to something that can't even fairly be considered comparable.

People are finally thinking i'm not crazy. <3

I really want Grit's damage reduction penalty removed removed or the class changed to be a "different" kind of tank because of this. I want Dark Knight's to be the more offensive tanks.