The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

[MirielleLavandre]

People also have to consider that in many, many instances we currently have, if a dps has high enough ilvl and the healer does as well, if a very low ilvl tank dies, there may be certain times (% till boss death, trash clear, etc.) where the healer can just keep everyone alive and cure themselves and the dps who has to tank effectively enough to avoid a complete wipe. I have done this numerous times either keeping myself alive long enough for trash to die (after getting aggro w/ Holy), or to keep a random high ilvl dps alive long enough for a boss clear. Given with how much we are overgeared, keeping myself (6200 or so HP on WHM with food) and a similarly geared but not max ilvl dps alive for a boss kill is easy. This is when the tank may be new and have sub ilvl 100-110 gear, etc.

Again, the issue is overgearing - not bad dungeon design. When looking at design, we must consider the ivl the dungeons were made to be completed with. As many have said, experts are boringly easy because we're all 30+ ilvls over what they are made for...

[Kuroyasha]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

Yoshida: "Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be."

As you can see, healer dps isn't taken into account in the design. People saw world class skilled players do it and followed. Ofc it's efficient and effective, but I'm only arguing the initial point. Tank dps is of course because tanking involves actually hitting the boss continually. Now if bosses actually did take into account dps good healers can do? Ohhhh we'd have a whole new ballgame in the overall difficulty.


To address OP point. I think the problem is by the time new dung get released we already are way above ilvl. Furthermore, when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius). I agreed when Yoshi mentioned complaints of the rewards not being worth the effort of Pharos Sirius. I just thought they would up the reward to meet the challenge, not reduce the challenge to meet the reward.

[Malevicton]

... lol

Thanks for proving my point.

Wait, honest question, what is your point? Let's assume I'm too dense to understand. My argument, start to finish, is that it's possible to sr dungeons at the min ilvl. What issue do you have with that?

I admit I got a bit snide with the life story bit, but you have to admit you've been making a lot of personal attacks as well. This doesn't need to be so aggressive.

[Sapphic]

I would like to see them add in a savage edition for each of the dungeons that ramps up the dmg you take.

I'd prefer them to add an extreme version of the dungeons with more complex mechanics rather than just increasing mobs damage potential.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

I'd prefer them to add an extreme version of the dungeons with more complex mechanics rather than just increasing mobs damage potential.

I don't really care what they do but they gotta do something. If Alexander savage is the only difficult content in the game, Heavensward will be incredibly stale

I mean even WoW is about to get Mythic dungeons so.... Ultimately they need both, increased damage and more gimmicks. The biggest problem I see with the dungeons is theres really isn't much punishment to failing mechanics, mainly because the damage is so weak. The first boss in Keeper of the Lake is a good example, you can have every canister blow up and not wipe. Also the last boss in Amdapor Keep HM, he got a big frontal cone AoE but it barely tickles and only stuns you for like 2 seconds. I could keep going but you get the point.

I think Pharos Sirius had really good design to stop people from pulling the whole dungeon at once. They had corrupted sprites with heavy hitting AoEs, pull 2 of those things and your probably going to wipe. I'd much rather see stuff like that instead of gates where u need to kill enemies to get the key. Make the enemies tough enough to where pulling too many is suicide, instead of just putting gates everywhere.

[Wasselin]

Are you sure its not because that we're overgearing dungeon mobs?

Mobs should have abilities that make this kind of behavior impossible even if you over gear the content, especially for content which quickly becomes overgeared. Crowd control is in the game for a reason right? At this point they might as well remove it. Making mobs a bit more dangerous, not just by hitting harder, make the game more strategic and thus more fun.

It doesn't have to be that much harder and some packs can still be balanced to be aoe'd down but they should make some packs where you need to use crowd control or a certain kill priority also. It keeps things interesting and makes people use the full range of strategies and abilities.

[Cakekizy]

Mobs should have abilities that make this kind of behavior impossible even if you over gear the content, especially for content which quickly becomes overgeared. Crowd control is in the game for a reason right? At this point they might as well remove it. Making mobs a bit more dangerous, not just by hitting harder, make the game more strategic and thus more fun.

It doesn't have to be that much harder and some packs can still be balanced to be aoe'd down but they should make some packs where you need to use crowd control or a certain kill priority also. It keeps things interesting and makes people use the full range of strategies and abilities.

That's like wanting a level 5 rat to require effort to kill at level 30.

[SDaemon]

That's like wanting a level 5 rat to require effort to kill at level 30.

FEAR IT! FOR IT SHALL CONQUER YOUR WORLD!!

[KisaiTenshi]

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

Yoshida: "Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set."

As you can see, healer dps isn't taken into account in the design. People saw world class skilled players do it and followed. Ofc it's efficient and effective, but I'm only arguing the initial point. Tank dps is of course because tanking involves actually hitting the boss continually. Now if bosses actually did take into account dps good healers can do? Ohhhh we'd have a whole new ballgame in the overall difficulty.


To address OP point. I think the problem is by the time new dung get released we already are way above ilvl. Furthermore, when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius). I agreed when Yoshi mentioned complaints of the rewards not being worth the effort of Pharos Sirius. I just thought they would up the reward to meet the challenge, not reduce the challenge to meet the reward.

There are no less than 6 threads on the healer forum with people flipping their lid that they can no longer push the "healers must dps or they are lazy" argument from this article.

And I've been getting the worst sense of deja vu every time someone quotes Yoshida now, because it spread out over so many threads.

[Onikimaru]

when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius)

This community complains INSTANTLY when something is "too hard" or can't be completed straight away. It made me so angry when people thought the FINAL boss of ARR shouldn't be strong. Like why?, why should the last boss of the game be a joke?. A dragon the size of a skyscraper should be a huge threat to the warriors of light and the people of the two nations, but nooo nerfy nerf nerf...and now going into alexander HM, there will be no surprises. Unlike coil which had mystery behind it...