The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

[BreathlessTao]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

[Mercuito]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

[Everdark]

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

Thats over gearing. Try doing those mass pulls with gear at the minimum ilvl and that's simply not viable.

[BreathlessTao]

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

Oh, I'm not saying I haven't noticed what you describe at all, I'm just saying I don't consider them the signs of the holy trinity being broken. They're more like the signs of weak(/bad?) game/dungeon design, which is another matter altogether.

[BHGlobbd]

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

That's called Speed Run, who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

[SDaemon]

who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

I don't mind 30m dungeons. Running a dungeon is part of the fun with this game, especially when you consider how trivial it is to cap tomes. Sure, some players are only in it for tomes, but its not the only reason people run dungeons.

[Stanelis]

That's called Speed Run, who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

I do, but not when we are required to farm dungeons hundred of times (like for the relic weapon). Also if the dungeons involved exploration, it wouldn't be a problem.

[AzraelX]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

I think the Devs didn't want healers to DPS- Yoshi mentioned this in an interview) BUT they found out in the FCoB raids Helaers were dpsing! they were shocked. so To even the dps capabilities between scholar Wht mage.. they game more DPS abilities to WHM Mag to meet how players were playing in end game content.

I don't see it broken. I tihnk mobs hit hard enough AT APPROPRIATE level! They will be options to play content at lowest ilevel so Op[ will get what he wants.

[Kuroyasha]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

Yoshida: "Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be."

As you can see, healer dps isn't taken into account in the design. People saw world class skilled players do it and followed. Ofc it's efficient and effective, but I'm only arguing the initial point. Tank dps is of course because tanking involves actually hitting the boss continually. Now if bosses actually did take into account dps good healers can do? Ohhhh we'd have a whole new ballgame in the overall difficulty.


To address OP point. I think the problem is by the time new dung get released we already are way above ilvl. Furthermore, when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius). I agreed when Yoshi mentioned complaints of the rewards not being worth the effort of Pharos Sirius. I just thought they would up the reward to meet the challenge, not reduce the challenge to meet the reward.

[KisaiTenshi]

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

Yoshida: "Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set."

As you can see, healer dps isn't taken into account in the design. People saw world class skilled players do it and followed. Ofc it's efficient and effective, but I'm only arguing the initial point. Tank dps is of course because tanking involves actually hitting the boss continually. Now if bosses actually did take into account dps good healers can do? Ohhhh we'd have a whole new ballgame in the overall difficulty.


To address OP point. I think the problem is by the time new dung get released we already are way above ilvl. Furthermore, when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius). I agreed when Yoshi mentioned complaints of the rewards not being worth the effort of Pharos Sirius. I just thought they would up the reward to meet the challenge, not reduce the challenge to meet the reward.

There are no less than 6 threads on the healer forum with people flipping their lid that they can no longer push the "healers must dps or they are lazy" argument from this article.

And I've been getting the worst sense of deja vu every time someone quotes Yoshida now, because it spread out over so many threads.