The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

[Cynfael]

Oh look, now it's spreading to the General Forum.

...you actively helped spread it. That comment is too rich.

a) There is one group that is perfectly fine with Cleric Stance, and would object to Cleric Stance being changed in any way. They encourage, if not berate healers who do not DPS doing any content. Their angle is "then why do we even have Cleric Stance" or "Why do we have DPS skills at all?", some of them have a point.
b) There is another group that regards the Cleric Stance is a game mechanic that was originally intended so healers can play the storyline content and not be forced to roll a DPS character just to get through the solo parts. The players recognize their primary role in the party is to be the healer, and are just fine with not DPS'ing.

I just...can't.

[Verdan]

You know, if you're gonna pick a thing to crusade about all over the forums, at least pick something that's important and helps everyone.
I donno, like housing availability. Let's pretend instead of bringing up how healers aren't meant to do damage, every time you posted you talked about how hard it was for people to get houses in this game. I think that'd be more productive.

[KisaiTenshi]

You know, if you're gonna pick a thing to crusade about all over the forums, at least pick something that's important and helps everyone.
I donno, like housing availability. Let's pretend instead of bringing up how healers aren't meant to do damage, every time you posted you talked about how hard it was for people to get houses in this game. I think that'd be more productive.

There is nothing wrong with housing in this game. If you make housing cheap for everyone, then nothing but bots will fill them up to flip them as another source of RMT. But that is not this thread.

This thread is about players not working well together because they do not understand their roles in the party and how the game is balanced based on those roles. The OP was mentioning how players who primarily DPS simply try to faceroll over everything in the game like the mechanics don't matter.

The entire thing blew up across the healer forums (in this thread, back here) because of something Yoshida said on 5-19 which runs counter to a popularly held argument over the healer's role in the party.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ount-for-raids
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cus-on-healing.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...uld-you-use-it

Now look at the tone 6 months ago:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...eons-and-Raids
Or last year
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Not-DPS-Debate

And that is not even looking at reddit and 4chan.

Yoshi-P says Healer DPS was not taken into account when designing the content. "Healer must DPS" argument is completely demolished. End of story. That doesn't retroactively fix the game balance where players are trying to faceroll over content.

Do we throw more doors, keys and switches to slow down speedpullers? How about making the dungeons more about exploring and less about being a linear race to the finish line? How about making the trash mechanics AI smarter? Here comes a party with two healers, let's pick off the one not in CS since it will healing more.

[Lemuria]

There is nothing wrong with housing in this game. If you make housing cheap for everyone, then nothing but bots will fill them up to flip them as another source of RMT. But that is not this thread.

There is far more wrong with housing than anyone wants to admit to. The lack of instancing, the abhorrent costs, and the fact that every home is already taken before you can even blink when they add more wards.

DPS healers... not so big a deal in my opinion. Sure, you'll get some idiots who think that spamming Holy instead of actually healing is considered beneficial, then blame the tank when they inevitably die. You also get some idiots who forget they're in clerics stance and start madly spamming heals on you because they didn't realize it reduces cures by 20%. But there are plenty of people out there who have a good balance.

If you can do it without it harming the flow, then go for it.

Besides, regardless of what Yoshi-P says I firmly believe that some content was designed with healer DPS in mind. I base this on the sheer amount of damage needed in those instances and the minimum ilvl set by the developers. Simply put, in much high end content, you would be hard-pressed to win without healer damage if you played at the base item level for that dungeon simply because there are often rage mechanics in place.

[Samburi]

There is far more wrong with housing than anyone wants to admit to. The lack of instancing, the abhorrent costs, and the fact that every home is already taken before you can even blink when they add more wards.

If every plot is gone after a blink of the eye, then the prices were just too low, not too high.

[KisaiTenshi]

There is far more wrong with housing than anyone wants to admit to. The lack of instancing, the abhorrent costs, and the fact that every home is already taken before you can even blink when they add more wards.

Again, that's not this thread. If everyone deserved a house, the they would have pulled the kind of nonsense Mabinogi did with the "homestead" and it would be come an unlimited resource farm for botters. That is why instanced housing is the wrong thing to do, even if well intentioned.

DPS healers... not so big a deal in my opinion. Sure, you'll get some idiots who think that spamming Holy instead of actually healing is considered beneficial, then blame the tank when they inevitably die. You also get some idiots who forget they're in clerics stance and start madly spamming heals on you because they didn't realize it reduces cures by 20%. But there are plenty of people out there who have a good balance.

If you can do it without it harming the flow, then go for it.

Besides, regardless of what Yoshi-P says I firmly believe that some content was designed with healer DPS in mind. I base this on the sheer amount of damage needed in those instances and the minimum ilvl set by the developers. Simply put, in much high end content, you would be hard-pressed to win without healer damage if you played at the base item level for that dungeon simply because there are often rage mechanics in place.

What Yoshi-P said was that they designed the dungeon content without taking into account the healer DPS. This is not by any means a "hardcore" game, so players who actually have all the gear from the previous dungeon should have no problem playing the current dungeon content. DF PUG's are not the same thing as Static's. Many of the arguments about DPS'ing as a healer completely ignore the conditions that are allowing them to DPS at all.

For example, Sometimes I get a raid where nearly no healing is required, this is because the other healer is a scholar, their fairy is doing all the reactive healing AND the players are actively avoiding taking damage, and likely also are well overgeared.

But what ticks me off is this (different from above):

Because the player just straight up went "I'm not gonna heal, at all" (and indeed didn't exit CS except to unnecessarily use Medica II,) and this has been happening more frequently. Which means that I'm having to do MY job and THEIR job.

[SarcasmMisser]

What Yoshi-P said was that they designed the dungeon content without taking into account the healer DPS.

No he is not he was talking about 8 man raids. Raids. Stop ignoring people who point this out and address the 8 man coil raids he was referring to, not CT, not dungeons. RAIDS.

Why can't you talk about the 8 man raids? The dynamic of 4 and 24 mans is not the same if you can't talk about the 8 man raids then stop talking.

Also I like that the person saying they're going to holy trash was being very nice about it. You're not the good guy in this story. Why are you mad that he is DPSing, because you want to DPS instead? I thought you liked healing, that's baffling consider the incoming damage is so low that 6 healers is completely redundant in CT raids; you would literally have nothing to heal if everyone tried healing.

So you don't want to DPS, you don't want others to dps, you want 6 heals to heal in CT when all incoming damage can be covered by regen and faeries. Do you want to do anything? You're being as bad as any snobby elitist who demands that healers DPS except instead of demanding people play well you are demanding people play bad.

[SarcasmMisser]

...

Hi I know you don't like directly responding to important questions so you can stay on message and continue to parade that Yoshida comment around, which I am sure at this point is framed and placed on an altar with burning candles and incense, but can you give us a time frame of how long you will continue to get mad over something that will never change? Maybe there will be a point where you stop dragging it into literally every thread ever?

Also I don't see where in that yoshida post he is talking about dungeons? He is talking about 8 man raids, if you are going to continue citing it like it's statute at least address why that is relevant at all, or is it because you cannot relate to the subject for some reason? Important questions likely to not be given an adequate answer.

[Cynfael]

"Healer must DPS" argument is completely demolished. End of story.

...are you the Iraqi Information Minister? Loved your work in the early 90s.

Your capacity to spin information to make your arguments regardless of what's going on around you is almost impressive. Whenever I think we're making some progress, you relapse into the same debunked rhetoric.

[Verdan]

There is nothing wrong with housing in this game. If you make housing cheap for everyone, then nothing but bots will fill them up to flip them as another source of RMT....

So if housing was more available and thus easier to get a hold of, bots would buy them to flip them, a practice that only exists because of the difficulty of getting a house? That is a silly argument. Flipping houses also revolves around interactions and good faith trades, something that bots and RMT can not take for granted when deciding their actions. It's why they're in the materia and shard/crystal buisness. It's low skill, high volume, hands off stuff.

Housing as a system matters little on any server with a large population, because all lots are taken. It's not acting as a gil sink, because the only transactions that are going on are giving large amounts of money to the already rich, and it's not acting as a boost to the economy because so few people are looking for furnishings. In addition, housing provides several high demand items through gardening, which means that if you're rich enough to buy a house you have access to several ways to make yourself richer. With the addition of Free Company crafting and Airships, this will only get worse. Housing is straight busted on servers with high pops, and only through massive increases in how many there are will this get any better.