RIP Ninja

[Allyrion]

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS.

As much as I hate to support the completely no-positional side, the analogy is completely valid.
Positionals give bonus potency just like Combos do.
Missing a positional means you lose damage just like messing up a combo order would.


Any added positionals would be something you're expected to hit, and SE will damage our balance around it.
So it's not just some icing on the cake damage, though it'd be nice if they add potency bonuses to what we currently have.

Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

When you examine this, people who love positionals already have a class in the MDPS archetype. People who are okay with, but don't enjoy too many, have the Dragoon. People who hate positionals but want a melee DPS class have the Ninja if they can begrudgingly accept a mere one.

You are basically telling anyone who hates positionals but loves melee DPS to play RDPS classes, which many people do not enjoy.

I covered this before.
Monks use around 28 positionals per minute. They have a ~2s gcd and all of their weaponskills are positionals except for Touch of Death which is refreshed every 30 seconds.
Hence 28.

DRG has 5, and NIN has 1.
I still don't see this as balanced though since MNK is so much higher than the rest.
It's already favoring a lack of positionals.
It shouldn't be about who likes positionals and who doesn't. It should be an even scale about how much you can handle them.
I also think it's like casters dealing with standing in place, everyone has a certain amount of mobility but still have to watch consider their movement to some extent.

That said, I understand some play NIN because it has no positionals.
Maybe it should've been added on to DRG more, but I really think they did this simply because they want positionals to be part of the nature of melee as much as standing still is the nature of ranged.
They added WM to BRD for this reason, and positionals to NIN for this.
So 1 positional per minute was never really going to fly, if that's their intended design.

I'm not going to repeat why I think NIN makes more sense to have positionals(yes, even non-rear positionals) than, at least, DRG.
But I do understand the sentiment that there's going to be backlash between changing the dynamic.
Then again, we don't know how many new positionals we're getting, so we'll see what that dynamic happens to be after.

[Kaze3434]

snip.

im trying to have the whole thing center around having positionals, not someone being quite frankly, stupid. the thing that is mostly annoying about this(the people saying Nin will die with positonals) is that no one knows exactly what is coming.

[Krylo]

not someone being quite frankly, stupid

Be the change you want to see in the world. I suggest you start by not claiming that positionals are 'not required'. It's not the case for Dragoon. It's definitely not the case for Monk. It's not even the case for Ninja's two positionals (really 1 because you wouldn't use sneak attack over trick attack outside of solo content). Everything is balanced around the classes hitting most of their positionals.

When they're added to ninja they will be required. Just as much as using combos in the right order is required. Anyone standing in one spot missing all their positionals will be seen, quite rightly, as a terrible player. Just like someone spamming unprocced rage of halone or standing behind the boss mashing bootshine or heavy thrust all day. Just like a ninja who currently uses Trick Attack from flank.

If you want intelligent arguments, try making them.

[Kaze3434]

Just like a ninja who currently uses Trick Attack from flank.

If you want intelligent arguments, try making them.

not going to lie, i laughed at this. so many times have trick attack hit the flank because i moved early in t13. back on point tho, i agree that to play to the best of a jobs potential, hitting where you will do more damage is better, and should be aimed for. if something prevents you from doing that reliably(a bosses move or being rooted) then there isnt much that can be done.

[Ransu]

It shouldn't be about who likes positionals and who doesn't. It should be an even scale about how much you can handle them.

No that's exactly how it should be. The entire point of having different classes/jobs is to have a unique playstyle for each one to appeal to a wide audience. I'm sick and tired of developers homogenizing their classes in every single MMO. That crap is boring.

[Taranok]

No that's exactly how it should be. The entire point of having different classes/jobs is to have a unique playstyle for each one to appeal to a wide audience. I'm sick and tired of developers homogenizing their classes in every single MMO. That crap is boring.

Yes, exactly. There are ways to make a rotation more complex without needing positionals, just as there's ways to make rotations more complex without forcing someone to stand completely still. The Bard rotation is allowed to be lower DPS than the BLM or SMN because the Bard doesn't need to stop attacking while moving, so it can be a rotation where using the most optimal skill for every moment is required. The Ninja can have more rotational complexity in much the same way as a Bard could to accomplish the same thing.

That is, they are punished for not using the most optimal ability at all times, otherwise known as a priority-based rotation. This is what the Ninja actually has right now, it's just too simple if you have access to a warrior or another ninja, and not much more complicated if you don't. What are the optimal ability rotations? Basically Huton>Suiton(trick attack)>Raiton, and Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye>Mutilate>Shadow Fang>Aeolian Edge. That's it. That's the entire Ninja rotation.

And that is what the devs should be fixing. Outside of those abilities, all you have are your jugulate, mug, Kassatsu, which is prioritized to be used after Suiton or when its GCD is up thereafter, and Blood for Blood and Internal Release when able (also ideally prioritized around Suiton).

How do you make this more complicated? Well, I'd first start by just getting rid of Dancing Edge or make Dancing Edge the number 2 position ability before pushing one of 2 other third abilities after (adjust damage accordingly), such as Shadow Fang or Huton-extender. That would complicate the rotation, and would help stifle DPS while making the rotation more complex, as now you have 3 different 3-button combos to juggle instead of just 2 with a token 2-length combo. It also makes timing shadow fang a bit trickier. This is just an example of what can be done. Moving Dancing Edge to the mid part of the rotation also serves to put it in the same league as the piercing resistance debuff of Dragoons and helps to devalue Storm's Eye as a requirement in raids while also serving to make it so NIN damage is more consistent regardless of the inclusion of a warrior or second ninja, as it really does make a noticeable difference as to whether it's up or not.

But I digress. The point is that class diversity is important, not having positionals but having a complicated priority system would serve to make the class have the same difficulty as the Monk without killing diversity.

[silentwindfr]

...The point is that class diversity is important, not having positionals but having a complicated priority system would serve to make the class have the same difficulty as the Monk without killing diversity.

only this part make me tilt, because i have never found monk hard to play, the rotation is quite simple and don't change, the only hard part over it, it's the time where you loose the GL because of the fight mechanic mostly. but outside this the monk is far from being complicate, you do have an optimal position to place yourself for have to mov the little possible while executing your series of combo, either on flank or rear. most fo the time you will chain 3 skill before switch of position and if you respect the position it's quite easy.

the difficulty of the ninja don't come from the weaponskill rotation only, but from the weaponskill rotation plus the ninjutsu. simply say that you need to execute suiton, raiton and such are kinda understatement over the trouble it can create.