RIP Ninja

[Adire]

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position. initially, the only one that had true requirements was dragoon, in that you had to have impulse drive hit from behind, otherwise none of the next moves would apply.

If you're someone who wants to do the best possible with a job, they are very much requirements. Right now NIN is designed in a way that allows it to have minimal positionals but competitive DPS. Adding positionals the job's skills will make using them the new standard for anyone who wants to put full effort into playing the job to the best of their ability, vs their ability to do that now without having to do positionals.

[Dualblade]

While I highly doubt it would be such, I will laugh if it turns out all the new positionals are actually just back ones like Trick, with similar large increases to potency, in part because that would give a very good reason for the aggro dump too: Do lots of damage, dump on tank as soon as it turns around, do more big damage since its back is turned again.

Again I doubt it would be that simple, but would laugh.

[Kaze3434]

Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

[Nalien]

Again I doubt it would be that simple, but would laugh.

I've been entertaining the idea that they'll just make it so Dancing Edge requires you to be at the flank of a target. Leaving us at exactly the same number of positional requirements, provided a Warrior is around.

Guess that might be an issue with the Dork Knight bandwagon though. All I really expect is for the Huton refresh combo to have a requirement, putting us at 2 every minute, though.

[Viridiana]

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

[Adire]

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

There are also many other ways to increase dps than by adding more positionals.

[Viridiana]

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

[Adire]

/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

I've seen some of your previous posts, you do seem to be on the same side as me judging by those. I think I got the wrong idea from your post there though. I apologize. I will explain the idea I got from your post if you wish, though I think it was the wrong one of the two meanings I got from it.

Edit: I will go ahead and explain. The first idea I got from your post was that you seemed to be saying that positionals are essentially a necessary evil to add to NIN as bonus damage to keep it competitive in DPS.

The second idea that I got after reading it again was that you were saying that a NIN will have to use positionals that are added in order to keep up competitive DPS, and that not using them will result in subpar DPS. I'm guessing the second meaning I got from your post is correct, yes?

[Viridiana]

I've seen some of your previous posts, you do seem to be on the same side as me judging by those. I think I got the wrong idea from your post there though. I apologize. I will explain the idea I got from your post if you wish, though I think it was the wrong one of the two meanings I got from it.

lol, no problem.

Basically, once positionals are added, they're not so much "positional bonuses" as they are "positional requirements" with penalties for missing them. I mean, one could try to say that TA has a "positional bonus" for attacking from behind, but considering that the difference between hitting the positional and not is basically the difference in just not using a ninjutsu for that 20 seconds, it's really more of a requirement. Once you have positionals, hitting all the positionals (or at least the vast majority) becomes the standard by which the class is balanced and judged. Same as how you don't balance DRG off of the guy who stands next to the tank spamming uncombo'd Full Thrust and not using any CDs. >_>

[Allyrion]

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS.

As much as I hate to support the completely no-positional side, the analogy is completely valid.
Positionals give bonus potency just like Combos do.
Missing a positional means you lose damage just like messing up a combo order would.


Any added positionals would be something you're expected to hit, and SE will damage our balance around it.
So it's not just some icing on the cake damage, though it'd be nice if they add potency bonuses to what we currently have.

Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

When you examine this, people who love positionals already have a class in the MDPS archetype. People who are okay with, but don't enjoy too many, have the Dragoon. People who hate positionals but want a melee DPS class have the Ninja if they can begrudgingly accept a mere one.

You are basically telling anyone who hates positionals but loves melee DPS to play RDPS classes, which many people do not enjoy.

I covered this before.
Monks use around 28 positionals per minute. They have a ~2s gcd and all of their weaponskills are positionals except for Touch of Death which is refreshed every 30 seconds.
Hence 28.

DRG has 5, and NIN has 1.
I still don't see this as balanced though since MNK is so much higher than the rest.
It's already favoring a lack of positionals.
It shouldn't be about who likes positionals and who doesn't. It should be an even scale about how much you can handle them.
I also think it's like casters dealing with standing in place, everyone has a certain amount of mobility but still have to watch consider their movement to some extent.

That said, I understand some play NIN because it has no positionals.
Maybe it should've been added on to DRG more, but I really think they did this simply because they want positionals to be part of the nature of melee as much as standing still is the nature of ranged.
They added WM to BRD for this reason, and positionals to NIN for this.
So 1 positional per minute was never really going to fly, if that's their intended design.

I'm not going to repeat why I think NIN makes more sense to have positionals(yes, even non-rear positionals) than, at least, DRG.
But I do understand the sentiment that there's going to be backlash between changing the dynamic.
Then again, we don't know how many new positionals we're getting, so we'll see what that dynamic happens to be after.