RIP Ninja

[Taranok]

Well the problem is "If positionals bother you there is NIN currently" for anyone who wanted to melee dps; then it becomes "If positionals bother you, too bad, you can't play melee dps, deal with it".
Having choices is good...

Until everyone understands this, I will continue to say it, since this is really the problem.

Dragoon is always an option. Their positional (Read: sole positional move) simply provides a bonus if used positionally. Granted, if you don't use it from the flank/rear your DPS will suffer by like 3~8% at minimum but still.

Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

When you examine this, people who love positionals already have a class in the MDPS archetype. People who are okay with, but don't enjoy too many, have the Dragoon. People who hate positionals but want a melee DPS class have the Ninja if they can begrudgingly accept a mere one.

You are basically telling anyone who hates positionals but loves melee DPS to play RDPS classes, which many people do not enjoy.

Saying "Their positionals are bonus" does not alleviate the fact that they are required to maximize DPS as a MDPS class. They just don't completely cripple your DPS like they used to back when they were hard requirements. And to anyone who doesn't enjoy this, they are basically out of luck, because everyone wants the Ninja to be turned into a pseudo Dragoon or a Monk without giving anything in return. So instead of having even one class cater to the people who don't like positionals but love MDPS, you are saying they just shouldn't be MDPS because the people who love positionals and RDPS classes want something different from the Monk or Dragoon in style, but functionally similar in gameplay.

How can you not see this as a problem?

[Kaze3434]

Until everyone understands this, I will continue to say it, since this is really the problem.



Right now, there are 3 MDPS classes:

The Monk, which requires so many positionals per minute I wouldn't even know how to accurately quantify it other than a loose guess of 18 positionals per minute making the assumption of 3 out of every 5 abilities per 10 seconds is a positional, which is likely not correct but seems good enough for the purposes of debate.

The Dragoon, which requires a mere 5 positionals per minute (3 heavy thrusts and 2 impulse drives per minute).

And Ninja, which requires a mere one positional per minute. It happens to be the largest pass/fail positional in the entire game at the present, though the only positional we know that will be close to it in pass fail is the Warrior's perfect parry, interestingly enough.

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position. initially, the only one that had true requirements was dragoon, in that you had to have impulse drive hit from behind, otherwise none of the next moves would apply.

[Riepah]

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position.

Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

[Kaze3434]

Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

[Viridiana]

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

[Adire]

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

There are also many other ways to increase dps than by adding more positionals.

[Viridiana]

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

[Nalien]

Honestly, I expect the developers to be thinking that competitive DPS should all have to dance the same dance for their GCD damage, as it were.

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed. Then what? Ninja is in the same league as Monk and Dragoon while having no real complexity to it at all. Ninja honestly feels more like Bard on a good day, and Bard doesn't really come close to Monk or Dragoon. They can either add positional requirements to justify Ninjas damage output, or they can nerf its damage output to be more inline with Bard.

They could do something different to "earn" Ninja its GCD damage, but I'm struggling to think what. If you remove the lag issue (which doesn't even seem to affect everyone) Mudra are a joke to execute, the added steps in their use is paid off by their frequency and potency compared to Dragoons Jumps, while Monks surplus of positionals is the cost for them not really having any abilities of note. If anything that Huton extending combo isn't a band aid to fix Mudra lag, it is in recognition of the ability output between Ninja and Dragoon compared to what goes into executing them; For Dragoon not really anything, for Ninja quite a bit more. Been a while since I compared Jumps to Ninjutsus but I remember it being surprisingly close.

It perhaps should be the cast that Monk and Ninja sit on different ends of the spectrum; Monk with most of its damage coming from GCD rotations with lots of positional requirements. Ninja with most of its damage coming from ability rotation with that holding the "complexity" (Mudra) with few positional requirements on a relatively weak GCD rotation. With Dragoon sitting in the middle. Instead Ninja and Dragoon seem to occupy the same spot, likely due to Mudra lag (which lets remember, has basically been an issue with the game since launch, Mudra just made it more noticeable again). They don't want to shift the focus to Mudra because then the issue is even worse. So now Ninja gets a higher ability output without having to refresh Huton to compensate for the "complexity" of their execution, but since Ninjas GCD rotation is still providing a solid chunk of its overall DPS, and now it isn't really relying on Mudra to enhance that DPS, it should be earned in the same way as Dragoon. That's what I assume the developers are thinking, anyway. Not really sure I agree with it though.

I wonder if it would have been a better idea to change Raiton to be more like Huton/Kiss of the whatever (it would certainly provide a nice visual effect). You keep Raiton up because it enhances your GCD damage, rather than positionals earning that damage bonus, Mudra is through Raiton. The added benefit would be that Fuma Shuriken would then be the main source of ability damage for Ninja. Slightly less damage overall, but then it isn't exactly complex to do. GCD damage would increase to compensate, but it would still be dependent on Mudra.

[Ransu]

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed.

Mudras would be fixed by taking them off the GCD completely. Silly that it even has a GCD regardless of how short it is.

[Adire]

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position. initially, the only one that had true requirements was dragoon, in that you had to have impulse drive hit from behind, otherwise none of the next moves would apply.

If you're someone who wants to do the best possible with a job, they are very much requirements. Right now NIN is designed in a way that allows it to have minimal positionals but competitive DPS. Adding positionals the job's skills will make using them the new standard for anyone who wants to put full effort into playing the job to the best of their ability, vs their ability to do that now without having to do positionals.