RIP Ninja

[Ransu]

It shouldn't be about who likes positionals and who doesn't. It should be an even scale about how much you can handle them.

No that's exactly how it should be. The entire point of having different classes/jobs is to have a unique playstyle for each one to appeal to a wide audience. I'm sick and tired of developers homogenizing their classes in every single MMO. That crap is boring.

[Ransu]

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed.

Mudras would be fixed by taking them off the GCD completely. Silly that it even has a GCD regardless of how short it is.

[Taranok]

No that's exactly how it should be. The entire point of having different classes/jobs is to have a unique playstyle for each one to appeal to a wide audience. I'm sick and tired of developers homogenizing their classes in every single MMO. That crap is boring.

Yes, exactly. There are ways to make a rotation more complex without needing positionals, just as there's ways to make rotations more complex without forcing someone to stand completely still. The Bard rotation is allowed to be lower DPS than the BLM or SMN because the Bard doesn't need to stop attacking while moving, so it can be a rotation where using the most optimal skill for every moment is required. The Ninja can have more rotational complexity in much the same way as a Bard could to accomplish the same thing.

That is, they are punished for not using the most optimal ability at all times, otherwise known as a priority-based rotation. This is what the Ninja actually has right now, it's just too simple if you have access to a warrior or another ninja, and not much more complicated if you don't. What are the optimal ability rotations? Basically Huton>Suiton(trick attack)>Raiton, and Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye>Mutilate>Shadow Fang>Aeolian Edge. That's it. That's the entire Ninja rotation.

And that is what the devs should be fixing. Outside of those abilities, all you have are your jugulate, mug, Kassatsu, which is prioritized to be used after Suiton or when its GCD is up thereafter, and Blood for Blood and Internal Release when able (also ideally prioritized around Suiton).

How do you make this more complicated? Well, I'd first start by just getting rid of Dancing Edge or make Dancing Edge the number 2 position ability before pushing one of 2 other third abilities after (adjust damage accordingly), such as Shadow Fang or Huton-extender. That would complicate the rotation, and would help stifle DPS while making the rotation more complex, as now you have 3 different 3-button combos to juggle instead of just 2 with a token 2-length combo. It also makes timing shadow fang a bit trickier. This is just an example of what can be done. Moving Dancing Edge to the mid part of the rotation also serves to put it in the same league as the piercing resistance debuff of Dragoons and helps to devalue Storm's Eye as a requirement in raids while also serving to make it so NIN damage is more consistent regardless of the inclusion of a warrior or second ninja, as it really does make a noticeable difference as to whether it's up or not.

But I digress. The point is that class diversity is important, not having positionals but having a complicated priority system would serve to make the class have the same difficulty as the Monk without killing diversity.

[Kaze3434]

Go watch evangela on youtube! lol what a troll. If she plays like that no wonder people think ninja sucks.

aside from the troll part, it seems Evangela is pretty bad. the whole video, i dont think i saw any katon/doton, or dots.

[TakezoKensei]

well. I feel bad for naming names. Overreaction to some toxic gameplay ive run across a lot myself lately.

[LTEvil]

well. I feel bad for naming names. Overreaction to some toxic gameplay ive run across a lot myself lately.

Hide takezo is exposing bad gameplay. We no allow criticism in ff forums. Everyone is amazing that's why coil clear rates suck remember? Lol

[silentwindfr]

...The point is that class diversity is important, not having positionals but having a complicated priority system would serve to make the class have the same difficulty as the Monk without killing diversity.

only this part make me tilt, because i have never found monk hard to play, the rotation is quite simple and don't change, the only hard part over it, it's the time where you loose the GL because of the fight mechanic mostly. but outside this the monk is far from being complicate, you do have an optimal position to place yourself for have to mov the little possible while executing your series of combo, either on flank or rear. most fo the time you will chain 3 skill before switch of position and if you respect the position it's quite easy.

the difficulty of the ninja don't come from the weaponskill rotation only, but from the weaponskill rotation plus the ninjutsu. simply say that you need to execute suiton, raiton and such are kinda understatement over the trouble it can create.

[ChaozK]

I dont think Jobs are really balanced around difficulty but rather around disadvantages. As a DRG main i found MNK much simpler to play than NIN, imo NIN is already the most difficult melee to play due to the large amount of monitoring needed. So i dont think that postionals were added to increase NINs difficulty but rather for balancing porpuses.

The way that i look at it is, that if you are a good player neither the MNK, DRG or NIN rotation should give you any trouble and you should be able to play them flawlessly, yet when it comes to dealing with mechanics (for example stacking with the group), you would lose a good chunk of dmg as MNK, you would lose a bit dmg as DRG and you would lose no dmg as NIN.

What that means is that they would have to give NIN the lowest dps of the melees and in order to prevent that, they added positionals so that the playing field is even.
I think its the same with Bard and the other ranged dps, obviously people loved Bards freedom of movement but Bard players wanted to have their dps closer to the mages, so they had to give them similar disadvantages to keep things balanced.

[Neri]

well. I feel bad for naming names. Overreaction to some toxic gameplay ive run across a lot myself lately.

That nin...really is bad. I have never seen nin perform that bad before...or was it just a troll attempt for the whole dungeon? At the end I was pretty sure it was trolling though, auto attack the boss, lb the add, dance in the middle of the arena.

I noticed the mudra sequence, it's pretty slow. Is it the mudra lag people were talking about? Is it that bad in na server that you have to input them that slow?

[LTEvil]

That nin...really is bad. I have never seen nin perform that bad before...or was it just a troll attempt for the whole dungeon? At the end I was pretty sure it was trolling though, auto attack the boss, lb the add, dance in the middle of the arena.

I noticed the mudra sequence, it's pretty slow. Is it the mudra lag people were talking about? Is it that bad in na server that you have to input them that slow?

For me it is sometimes.