RIP Ninja

[Riepah]

none of the three have actual requirements. they are positional bonuses, in that you do more damage when it is done from a certain position.

Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

[Kaze3434]

Uh-huh, just like combos aren't actual "requirements", because you can just keep spamming the last strike of your combo indefinitely, without first having to execute the first two. It'll be ineffective, but hey, they aren't "requirements".

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

[Viridiana]

im trying to figure out how you missed that this is about POSITIONALS. also, really horrible leap in logic

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

[Adire]

It's the exact same point. You can sit there and mash Aeolian Edge all day. The other two steps aren't required, after all. Unless, of course, you want to do competitive DPS. But if "required for competitive DPS" is what we mean by "required," then positionals are also required. Hate to break it to you.

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

There are also many other ways to increase dps than by adding more positionals.

[Viridiana]

That's incorrect. Current NIN does competitive dps with only one positional. Proof that it's possible.

/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

[Adire]

/sigh. . .

You realize I'm on your side, right? At least, you seem to be on the side of "would rather not have positionals on NIN." Am I misunderstanding you? Because my post to Kaze was that starting in HW, positionals will be truly required in the same way that combos are currently required.

I've seen some of your previous posts, you do seem to be on the same side as me judging by those. I think I got the wrong idea from your post there though. I apologize. I will explain the idea I got from your post if you wish, though I think it was the wrong one of the two meanings I got from it.

Edit: I will go ahead and explain. The first idea I got from your post was that you seemed to be saying that positionals are essentially a necessary evil to add to NIN as bonus damage to keep it competitive in DPS.

The second idea that I got after reading it again was that you were saying that a NIN will have to use positionals that are added in order to keep up competitive DPS, and that not using them will result in subpar DPS. I'm guessing the second meaning I got from your post is correct, yes?

[Viridiana]

I've seen some of your previous posts, you do seem to be on the same side as me judging by those. I think I got the wrong idea from your post there though. I apologize. I will explain the idea I got from your post if you wish, though I think it was the wrong one of the two meanings I got from it.

lol, no problem.

Basically, once positionals are added, they're not so much "positional bonuses" as they are "positional requirements" with penalties for missing them. I mean, one could try to say that TA has a "positional bonus" for attacking from behind, but considering that the difference between hitting the positional and not is basically the difference in just not using a ninjutsu for that 20 seconds, it's really more of a requirement. Once you have positionals, hitting all the positionals (or at least the vast majority) becomes the standard by which the class is balanced and judged. Same as how you don't balance DRG off of the guy who stands next to the tank spamming uncombo'd Full Thrust and not using any CDs. >_>

[Nalien]

Honestly, I expect the developers to be thinking that competitive DPS should all have to dance the same dance for their GCD damage, as it were.

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed. Then what? Ninja is in the same league as Monk and Dragoon while having no real complexity to it at all. Ninja honestly feels more like Bard on a good day, and Bard doesn't really come close to Monk or Dragoon. They can either add positional requirements to justify Ninjas damage output, or they can nerf its damage output to be more inline with Bard.

They could do something different to "earn" Ninja its GCD damage, but I'm struggling to think what. If you remove the lag issue (which doesn't even seem to affect everyone) Mudra are a joke to execute, the added steps in their use is paid off by their frequency and potency compared to Dragoons Jumps, while Monks surplus of positionals is the cost for them not really having any abilities of note. If anything that Huton extending combo isn't a band aid to fix Mudra lag, it is in recognition of the ability output between Ninja and Dragoon compared to what goes into executing them; For Dragoon not really anything, for Ninja quite a bit more. Been a while since I compared Jumps to Ninjutsus but I remember it being surprisingly close.

It perhaps should be the cast that Monk and Ninja sit on different ends of the spectrum; Monk with most of its damage coming from GCD rotations with lots of positional requirements. Ninja with most of its damage coming from ability rotation with that holding the "complexity" (Mudra) with few positional requirements on a relatively weak GCD rotation. With Dragoon sitting in the middle. Instead Ninja and Dragoon seem to occupy the same spot, likely due to Mudra lag (which lets remember, has basically been an issue with the game since launch, Mudra just made it more noticeable again). They don't want to shift the focus to Mudra because then the issue is even worse. So now Ninja gets a higher ability output without having to refresh Huton to compensate for the "complexity" of their execution, but since Ninjas GCD rotation is still providing a solid chunk of its overall DPS, and now it isn't really relying on Mudra to enhance that DPS, it should be earned in the same way as Dragoon. That's what I assume the developers are thinking, anyway. Not really sure I agree with it though.

I wonder if it would have been a better idea to change Raiton to be more like Huton/Kiss of the whatever (it would certainly provide a nice visual effect). You keep Raiton up because it enhances your GCD damage, rather than positionals earning that damage bonus, Mudra is through Raiton. The added benefit would be that Fuma Shuriken would then be the main source of ability damage for Ninja. Slightly less damage overall, but then it isn't exactly complex to do. GCD damage would increase to compensate, but it would still be dependent on Mudra.

[Ransu]

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed.

Mudras would be fixed by taking them off the GCD completely. Silly that it even has a GCD regardless of how short it is.