Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

[Ceodore]

... If someone is making demands of me, I am not going to silently bow down to them. If he had asked nicely? I'd gladly give him what he wanted, as I've said oh so many times if you would take a moment to actually read.

I have read, and what essentially you are saying is that just because he was rude, you were rude back. Way to put out the fire with more lighter fluid Einstein. /sarcasm

Then, after you were rude right back, you proceeded to tell them how to play their class. As if anyone is going to listen to someone who is also rude.

Second, I never in this entire thread claimed to be an unnaturally skilled tank. I am skilled, that much I will say, but nowhere have I said that I am superior to most players at tanking. Please do not put words into my mouth. Also, what does the fact that I haven't played WAR much have to do with anything? WAR is a tank, PLD is a tank, I have a good understanding of the role that both fill. I don't have to play WAR to know how to tank..

In any profession, the authority on a field is going to have superior weight behind their opinion in that field than other people. Does that mean they have more value than other people as a person overall? No!

You allude to being an authority in the field of tanking and that your opinion in that field has more weight than other people's opinion in that field. Then, you proceed to contradict that statement by saying your opinion has no more value. So which is it? Does your opinion have more weight in the field of tanking just because you're a tank, or does it not have as much value as someone else's? If you claim to be an authority, then you should know all the aspects of the role. Next time, claim to be an authority in being a Paladin, since Paladins and Warriors have different capabilities and thus handle situations and fights differently sometimes.

Third, please read. I offered compromise, they responded with "nope, we're doing it our way 100%", yet I am on a high horse....? I am really getting tired of repeating this. If you aren't willing to be informed about this topic, please do not bother posting without at least admitting that you are uninformed.

Compromise on a request for a full clear? Lol. The whole point of full clear is to kill everything. There is no compromising to be made without it then not being a full clear. Congrats on being uninformed.

Fourth, we asked during the first pull's fight. I hadn't gone out of the way to collect mobs because I didn't want to get blasted by the Eye's AoE while fighting the non-optional packs. I wanted to clear them out (especially since no one was AoEing) before gathering the rest, and was taking a moment to figure out how to react to his demands. Just because I didn't immediately respond to them with words doesn't mean I was being "stubborn". I was doing my job first, and talking second, and was going to go back and get the mobs if he had a change of attitude or agreed to AoE so the dungeon wouldn't take a painfully long time if I went back to get the mobs had he agreed. And I won't lie....I was speechless for a bit after the initial attitude he had.

I was a rebel by pulling the non-optional mobs first when he wanted me to get us all blasted by the eye so that he could get his exp immediately, rather than later. And I was a rebel by asking him to compromise rather than give him 100% what he wanted and sacrifice what we wanted.

If you had a problem with his attitude, then using words first would be smarter. Before the first big pull, you could have said "Okay, but let's clear the main hall way first, then go back for the leftovers. Please be sure to use your AOEs when we get them all gathered" instead of pretending you're Stoic the Silent Mute. A run goes better when everyone is on the same page and understands one another, especially when you're dealing with lower level players who may not know yet that 100 potency when used on 10 mobs is worth more than 300 on one mob. Also, the eye's AOE doesn't reach into the side halls. You could have pulled all the mobs up to one side hall together, then the next, and so on. Someone needs to study their dungeons it sounds like, if they are such an authority.

And really...there comes a point when a little bit of rebellion is justified. Are you honestly saying it wouldn't irk you if someone demanded that you be their slave?

You are being extremely hostile and judgmental of me for someone who is not being referred to by my OP. Perhaps you should take a look at your own attitude.

You have no idea what hostile is if you think that's how I am acting. Judgmental, yes, definitely. Because the way you handled the situation for someone who seems to believe they are the leader is unbecoming of any leader. Responding against rudeness with being rude. Demanding respect without giving it. Commanding change after demonstrating inability to change. You have all the same signs of some of the worst sergeants I have ever worked under. Learn to be a gentleman or woman, respect the wishes of others to garner respect from them, and change your plan of attack to better suit those you are commanding and better suit the situation they wish to be in. This would have gone a lot smoother and a lot more friendlier if you had talked first and explained your plan, as well as what you need them to do, than just charging in. So, again, lack of planning on your part possibly compounded by a lack of communication as well as a possible lack of experience on theirs resulted in everyone having a bad time, and you going into the forums and complaining about your privilege as a tank.

[Seiryuukishi]

I do believe we can all agree there is little to no justification from either side to act like full blown retards regardless of what is said. The insurmountable lack of evidence to this... atrociousness is, well, just that. Atrocious. I've played every battle class save for summoner and scholar and I can say with absolute certainty that, if this whole business is to be believed, I've seen far worse and faired far better under the circumstances.

You won't get along with everyone, period. You can't please everyone, period. No single role or person behind said role has control over another or others, at all, no matter what, at any given time, period. Communication from the beginning is paramount, period. If the majority rules, it rules, period. If there is a stalemate and no compromise can be met you have no obligation to be there nor the right to force anyone to stay, period.

You always have two choices in any bad situation and they generally go as follows:
1. to do the right or wrong thing.
2. to stay or leave.
3. to be a part of the solution or part of the problem.
4. to communicate like a respectable human being or keep your mouth shut.

I've noticed a trend when it comes to threads like this. OPs never talk about how they handled the situations properly. So save for my earlier reprimand when I look at this all I see is nothing more than a disturbing lack of communication until things got so out of hand it was no longer an option. For all intents and purposes... Situation Normal: All F*@ked Up.

[Elim]

I don't think people should be so hard on the OP. Everyone is human. We all get our feathers ruffled once in awhile and have snap reactions. Not all of us would have been nice in his shoes, I bet you anything. The DPS was in the wrong, and started the whole conflict. IMO the tl;dr to this story is you reap what you sow.

[DreadRabbit]

Honestly this all just stems to no players should act entitled at all, regardless of their role. You're going to eventually end up playing with a rude jerk in every role who thinks because they're stuck doing DF they should get preferential treatment.

I wasn't there so I don't know just how hostile it was, but we also have to remember that due to DF's general nature if you want to communicate to your party before they take off, you have to do it quickly and in as few words as possible with most parties. I mean, we have healers who have to chase down tanks just to apply buffs because they take off the second people skip their opening scenes without saying a word. We also have console players who can't type as easily. So it's very possible that just because someone forgot "please" doesn't necessarily they're demanding that you do what they want. That could literally be them expressing what they're hoping for before risking a hasty tank just zoom down the hall.

I'm not saying you yourself are prone to doing that, but because that is a very common behavior of tanks that could have been part of it. Or it could be part of the reasons behind communicating that way if you run into this again in the future.

Now if they were truly being horrid party mates, which to make you this angry I'm sure they were, next time just vote to kick or leave the party and cue again. Obviously talk it out first, but even as DPS I would rather take another 42 minute cue than deal with someone being obnoxious on purpose.

[Adire]

I have read, and what essentially you are saying is that just because he was rude, you were rude back. Way to put out the fire with more lighter fluid Einstein. /sarcasm

Then, after you were rude right back, you proceeded to tell them how to play their class. As if anyone is going to listen to someone who is also rude.





You allude to being an authority in the field of tanking and that your opinion in that field has more weight than other people's opinion in that field. Then, you proceed to contradict that statement by saying your opinion has no more value. So which is it? Does your opinion have more weight in the field of tanking just because you're a tank, or does it not have as much value as someone else's? If you claim to be an authority, then you should know all the aspects of the role. Next time, claim to be an authority in being a Paladin, since Paladins and Warriors have different capabilities and thus handle situations and fights differently sometimes.



Compromise on a request for a full clear? Lol. The whole point of full clear is to kill everything. There is no compromising to be made without it then not being a full clear. Congrats on being uninformed.



If you had a problem with his attitude, then using words first would be smarter. Before the first big pull, you could have said "Okay, but let's clear the main hall way first, then go back for the leftovers. Please be sure to use your AOEs when we get them all gathered" instead of pretending you're Stoic the Silent Mute. A run goes better when everyone is on the same page and understands one another, especially when you're dealing with lower level players who may not know yet that 100 potency when used on 10 mobs is worth more than 300 on one mob. Also, the eye's AOE doesn't reach into the side halls. You could have pulled all the mobs up to one side hall together, then the next, and so on. Someone needs to study their dungeons it sounds like, if they are such an authority.



You have no idea what hostile is if you think that's how I am acting. Judgmental, yes, definitely. Because the way you handled the situation for someone who seems to believe they are the leader is unbecoming of any leader. Responding against rudeness with being rude. Demanding respect without giving it. Commanding change after demonstrating inability to change. You have all the same signs of some of the worst sergeants I have ever worked under. Learn to be a gentleman or woman, respect the wishes of others to garner respect from them, and change your plan of attack to better suit those you are commanding and better suit the situation they wish to be in. This would have gone a lot smoother and a lot more friendlier if you had talked first and explained your plan, as well as what you need them to do, than just charging in. So, again, lack of planning on your part possibly compounded by a lack of communication as well as a possible lack of experience on theirs resulted in everyone having a bad time, and you going into the forums and complaining about your privilege as a tank.

Putting words into my mouth again I see. I was doing my routine DD pull, and chose to spend a little time on thinking on how to react to his abuse inside the crystal buff while we fought, offered him compromise, and he shot it down. How is that rude....? Is offering compromise or taking a moment to decide what to say to his blatant abuse rude? Not the optimal reaction one would have, but I am not perfect. And there you go again, personally insulting my intelligence :/

And again, you're failing to understand my context. I was equating a tank's role rights of pulling mobs to an authority's rights to have a more valuable opinion on their subject. I did not contradict my statement. Do you see the "as a person" in that quote? Do you know what that means? It means I'm saying that the authority's value as a person is not superior to the others' values as people. Everyone has the same personal rights. Their opinions on their subject (as a tank's choice in playing their role of pulling mobs, as a surgeon's opinion on surgery, etc) is more valuable than others' opinions on it (a dps' choice in pulling mobs, a photographers' choice on surgery, etc). Hopefully this clarified that for you. Also, you still fail to prove that point. A PLD and WAR both fill the tank role in a dungeon, and you do not have to know how to play one to play the other. They're both going to tank either way. And if I'm playing PLD, obviously I don't need to know how WAR's abilities work for that situation. I only need to know how to tank with PLD if I'm playing PLD.

You think there can't be compromise on a full clear? So, me asking the dps to AoE when he wanted to single target isn't offering compromise? You're the uninformed one here.

Also, I am typically a quiet person. I also think before I speak. You know what my first reaction was when I was made into a slave immediately? "What is your problem dude?" is what I wanted to say. I controlled myself, and instead chose to get the first kills out of the way and talk to him during that before deciding what to do next. And I was reasonable when I talked to him. Also, I didn't know that about that dungeon. I haven't run it in a while. Thank you for bringing that to my attention however. It still does not justify the demands and attitude and slavelike treatment of me exhibited by him, and still in no way means that I wasn't going to pull the mobs in those rooms, especially given the compromise discussion. Also, he was not new.

Looking at his profile on the lodestone now, he has multiple 50s: WAR, WHM, NIN, and now BRD. He also bragged that he has all 3* crafts, not that that is combat relevant. But it points to him being in the game for a while nonetheless. Even if he had been new, what I was asking of him was not unreasonable.

And yes, you are being hostile. Want me to name some examples of direct insults you've made?

And again...I did NOT DEMAND ANYTHING. I was immediately shown disrespect and demanded of....how are you continuing to get from this that I demanded of him and disrespected him first...he lost some respect from me from his first statement and treating me like a slave, but still, I was willing to give him what he wanted...when I discussed a plan, he told me to screw off and leave or do what they wanted.

snip

I was giving the healer time to buff everyone as normal, so he definitely had time to ask a little more nicely, especially could have added in "please"

But yes, I really need to start using the votekick feature more. I avoid it like the plague because I'm quite tolerant and just hate the idea of booting people out completely, but I really do need to become one of those "kick happy" people. The more I'm in this community, the more I realize that. I've seen too many people wrongfully kicked due to apathy, seen plenty get kicked wrongfully simply because the bad people hit the button first.

[LTEvil]

No, see, I don't think you understand.

Zaft is amazing. Take My likes.

[DreadRabbit]

But yes, I really need to start using the votekick feature more. I avoid it like the plague because I'm quite tolerant and just hate the idea of booting people out completely, but I really do need to become one of those "kick happy" people. The more I'm in this community, the more I realize that. I've seen too many people wrongfully kicked due to apathy, seen plenty get kicked wrongfully simply because the bad people hit the button first.

Oh I agree, I've seen it used too often too despite my shorter time being here and I'm glad to see people try not to use it for that reason. But in situations like yours there is definitely that "enough is enough" moment, haha. I'm sorry you had such a rough experience.

[Ceodore]

Putting words into my mouth again I see. I was doing my routine DD pull, and chose to spend a little time on thinking on how to react to his abuse inside the crystal buff while we fought, offered him compromise, and he shot it down. How is that rude....? Is offering compromise or taking a moment to decide what to say to his blatant abuse rude? Not the optimal reaction one would have, but I am not perfect. And there you go again, personally insulting my intelligence :/

He requested a full run, telling him how to play his class isn't compromising anything. It's telling him how to play his class. As others have said, it's simply your lack of communication, and apparently quick thinking to reply before beginning your "slave" work.

And again, you're failing to understand my context. I was equating a tank's role rights of pulling mobs to an authority's rights to have a more valuable opinion on their subject. I did not contradict my statement. Do you see the "as a person" in that quote? Do you know what that means? It means I'm saying that the authority's value as a person is not superior to the others' values as people. Everyone has the same personal rights. Their opinions on their subject (as a tank's choice in playing their role of pulling mobs, as a surgeon's opinion on surgery, etc) is more valuable than others' opinions on it (a dps' choice in pulling mobs, a photographers' choice on surgery, etc). Hopefully this clarified that for you. Also, you still fail to prove that point. A PLD and WAR both fill the tank role in a dungeon, and you do not have to know how to play one to play the other. They're both going to tank either way.

Yes, they are both tanks, but they are vastly different in their play style as well as their capabilities. Your ignorance on one does not make you an authority on all things tank. It only makes you an authority on your class. You really shouldn't assume you know a role without knowing the other ways that role can be filled. I would be willing to say I know my way around both, since I main both, I clear FCOB turns as both (not at the same time, obviously) and so I generalize my knowledge by saying I know my way around tanking. I still learn things occasionally about them, but there is very little for me left to learn about either class anymore. You generalize tanking as a Paladin as if it covers all aspects of tanking. But you'd have no clue which bosses are effected by Holmgang's Bind, or the prime moment to make use of its 1 hp save effect. Would you have any idea the synergy that spawns from using Bloodbath with Vengence, or Convalescence with Second Wind? So my point is, you aren't an authority on tanking, you're maybe an authority on being a Paladin.

You think there can't be compromise on a full clear? So, me asking the dps to AoE when he wanted to single target isn't offering compromise? You're the uninformed one here.

This isn't compromise, it's called telling someone how to play their class. You're telling them how to dps instead of changing the way you want to pull. Just because you like it one way doesn't mean there aren't others. I change the way I pull based on the dps I get when I queue. If my DPS are more single target based, I pull fewer packs. This assures that they can maintain TP and that the Healer can then chip into DPS easier. If I have mages or a bard, AOE is plentiful, so I pull more packs. Just because your healer can heal through 10 mobs beating on you for 2 minutes doesn't necessarily mean you should do that. Pull a little less, free up your healer to cleric stance dance, and thus higher dps and faster pulling.

Also, I am typically a quiet person. I also think before I speak. You know what my first reaction was when I was made into a slave immediately? "What is your problem dude?" is what I wanted to say. I controlled myself, and instead chose to get the first kills out of the way and talk to him during that before deciding what to do next. And I was reasonable when I talked to him. Also, I didn't know that about that dungeon. I haven't run it in a while. Thank you for bringing that to my attention however. It still does not justify the demands and attitude and slavelike treatment of me exhibited by him, and still in no way means that I wasn't going to pull the mobs in those rooms, especially given the compromise discussion. Also, he was not new.

You keep throwing out the whole "slave" thing, which is getting annoying. You aren't a slave, you had every right to do whatever you wanted, which includes kick, leave, or vote abandon. You aren't in shackles, you aren't slaving away. Either man (or woman) up or stick to a role where you aren't suppose to play leader. Also, if you're quiet, or you can't make these decisions on how to handle a situation quickly, I suggest the same thing. You have a tank, if you plan on playing, plan on being informed, talkative and quick to make smart decisions. This really isn't a role for the timid or the reserved when you are the one charging head first into the fray. If you want to stand behind someone else, stick to BLM.

Looking at his profile on the lodestone now, he has multiple 50s: WAR, WHM, NIN, and now BRD. He also bragged that he has all 3* crafts, not that that is combat relevant. But it points to him being in the game for a while nonetheless. Even if he had been new, what I was asking of him was not unreasonable.

And yes, you are being hostile. Want me to name some examples of direct insults you've made?

You assume your feelings are of some great importance to me, and you assume wrong. I have been very judgmental, and I stand by that, and whether my judgment offends your delicate feelings isn't my problem. My aim is to educate you so that you might actually be a better leader as a tank by pointing our where your flaws are and let you know it's your job to correct them. You came to the forums crying foul from an experience you had with a dps, so you have invited scrutiny and judgment onto yourself. Defend yourself all you like, but you are becoming offended at the very scrutiny and judgment you invited. Just because you want people to sugar coat their comments doesn't mean they are going to. Learn from this, it will help you a lot if you ever decide to make another post here.

And again...I did NOT DEMAND ANYTHING. I was immediately shown disrespect and demanded of....how are you continuing to get from this that I demanded of him and disrespected him first...he lost some respect from me from his first statement and treating me like a slave, but still, I was willing to give him what he wanted...

I never said you demanded or disrespected anyone first. I stated that you responded to his demands and his disrespect with a lack of communication first that could come off more as ignoring him all together. Again, I revert back to my previous statement, you need to be less quiet and more spoken if you're going to "lead" anything. Your lack of comment, followed by your actions of pulling only the things in the hall to a spot typically used for speed runs and first room clears sends the wrong message. Speak first, responds when spoken to at least. Your loss for words for a response in this case then was your own issue. If you had to think of a response for that long, then I suggest thinking faster, or better, knowing ahead of time what you should do in such a situation.

I know you think I'm rude too, or that I'm mean, but honestly, I'm just blunt, and straight to the heart of the issue, especially when there is talk about the privileges or rights of the role I specialize in. There are far too many tanks who give the role a bad reputation already for another one to come along and worsen it. Yes, we are the "leaders" "first in the fray, last one out" "protectors" "healing target number 1" etc., but that also means that while we know we are important, assuming that that importance gives us any more rights or leverage is simply inviting pompous high horse riders to give the rest of us tanks who actually develop a friendly and kind reputation a terrible stereotype. I'd rather you come away from this thinking more of how you could have handled the situation differently to create a friendlier environment so that you could garner a better reputation on servers beyond your own. Whether someone else is being rude or not doesn't matter. How you present yourself as a tank is what matters. Keep a level head, keep calm, but be fast to think and fast to react appropriately. Yes, you had a bad experience, and probably several if you've finally snapped and come here, but this isn't exactly the best place to come to appeal for sympathy.

No, see, I don't think you understand.

I lawled

[Sanne]

I can understand your anger.
I usually am friendly and go with whatever the party wants, but there are a few buts....

I had a bit same situation with my dps friend. I as tank wanted to do all for my friend, and the healer and blm wanted fast clear. (they both were level synced)

I didn't pull yet because I wanted this first cleared what we would do as group, but blm started pulling....
Well that was for me what annoyed me, so he decided not to talk and just do what he wanted.

I actually was on the point on saying ok, then we do it quick, but that pull made me angry, so me and my friend went our way and healer and blm went their way.
But soon I realized I disliked it like this and asked for a kick, and I got it.

The problem wasn't they wanted it fast, it was the blm starting pulling.

Of course if I just followed what they wanted from the start we would have no trouble, and usually I just do that, but there are times this stuff gets me really annoyed.

But... I see no use why getting offended when dps just says what he wants, just state what you want.
Not everyone is of the nice chat, which is a shame but not everyone is the same in this.

Look how they react, if they act rude, ask for a kick, because you can't come to an agreement with them.
That is how I did it. Or leave if they refuse to compromise and won't kick you.

No point in doing a dungeon when you are annoyed.

[Skivvy]

It seems you missed this bit of my quote, the bit that adds the entire context to my sentence at that. I was referring to when there is a TIE, the tank has the most weight. Someone has to be the tiebreaker, why not let the person whose job is to pull be the rightful tiebreaker if no one else can come to any agreement? The community already lets tanks pull by default and disapproves of when dps/healers do it, so the insinuation is there that they already have the most weight for determining when/how pulls happen.

I'm glad we agree that being demanded to do something is very wrong though. If he had asked me nicely, I would have done the clear for him. Same for if he would have agreed to AoE.





Yep, you aren't reading. That's right there in my OP. I also had on there for a while today that I'd be trimming the OP down when my post limit reset.

Have a nice day, you just proved my point. If you aren't willing to read, then please do not post with the tenacity of someone who has read. Choosing to be ignorant about something and then speaking about it anyways is not a good thing to do.

I am more than willing to have reasonable conversation when people post who bother to read what I say and when they don't jab at me personally, even if they disagree with me. You can find plenty of examples of that in my thread.

One last thing, then I'm really out. Why on earth would I go back and reference your original post in this thread? You're right. I didn't read it again. Once was enough, and as the conversation continued through multiple pages, and I've been responding to CURRENT comments as they are posted, not ninja edits on a post 10+ pages back. You're seriously grasping at straws with all of this. Have fun!