Why Speed Pulls?

[Sousoulsu]

Completely wrong. I dont discuss anything with you anymore because you ignore what people WANT.
They do not WANT to speedrun - you start pulling. They dont WANT to masspull - you ignore it and pull more.

You try to force your playstyle onto other people. And THAT is why im saying you are hopeless.

Do you know what happens when I do that?
The dungeon run goes faster, and the other players comem me.
I am never overtly impolite. I always say that I am having no trouble healing and that they can safely pull more. When they do not, I "accidentally" aggro another pack. And I heal through it. And the group's AoE is more potent.

If it is the general consensus of the group aside from who is tanking, why should the tank get to decide?
They should not. 3 to 1 wins in the "Playstyle-forcing" department. If they do not want to speedrun, they should queue with a DF group :3c

if nyew really donyot want to discuss anyaathing with mew anyaameowre, nyew need simply cease nyewr replying! m^^m

[Rasylia]

If it is the general consensus of the group aside from who is tanking, why should the tank get to decide?
They should not. 3 to 1 wins in the "Playstyle-forcing" department. If they do not want to speedrun, they should queue with a DF group

See? You dont get it. If you want to speedrun, go with a full df group.
It goes both ways. Just because YOU WANT TO you think EVERYONE has to adapt to you.

If an Ilvl 130 Tank sais "i dont want to speedrun" you say "you are overgeared, its a waste"
All you can respond to is "more effiicent" "waste of time" "i want to" "if they dont like it, make a full group"

Everyone has to adapt to your playstyle. But hey, you are right. I will stop responding now. Talking to you is like telling a Ilvl 130 Elitistic scumbag that not evey casual is bad and he is not "pro" just cause he has killed T13. Oh wait.

[Its_Elodie]

I agree OP, it seems like most of the playerbase is out to zerg all content as fast as possible. I don't tank a lot of the content anymore unless its an FC group or with friends because I got tired of the rush, rush, rush attitude a looooong time ago. If the zergfest is agreed upon at the beginning of the dungeon between all of its members its kosher. Tanks call the speed of the dungeon since they have the defensive capabilities and gear to do so. If that really bothers people when they que up and consistently don't like the pace people are generally running it as, feel free to roll your own tank and then you can call the shots. We wait long ques as dps classes and to a lesser extent healing classes for a tank to simply show up in our que. Do you like that wait? Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

[Ooshima]

Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

On the contrary there is just as much people who would tank and pull the whole damned street, if only the other 3 members are competent enough. Times when I enter as tank, I look at how my DPS do their job and how the WHM just stood there AFKing instead of throwing a holy or two to make things more fun, I'd say screw it, I rather queue as BLM and blow things up.

[chidarake]

On the contrary there is just as much people who would tank and pull the whole damned street, if only the other 3 members are competent enough. Times when I enter as tank, I look at how my DPS do their job and how the WHM just stood there AFKing instead of throwing a holy or two to make things more fun, I'd say screw it, I rather queue as BLM and blow things up.

this totally, when I tank which is daily.. I also see dps who cant do decent damage and healers just barely keeping me alive on a few trash pulls, no way I can speed run with those people. that's fine its df..

however if I go as blm I expect to kill a tonne of stuff at once and when its one pull at a time I will just afk the fights cus seriously I can kill 20 mobs in roughly the same time as killing a couple trash packs.. if there grouped up well...


-----

as for the whole pulling extra trash onto the tank and expecting the tank to gab it... that is not cool.. the tank pulled what they thought they or the group was capable off not what you think, and if the tank cant hold the hate then why pull more.>?


I use to not mind so much when people would do this on me cus I know I can handle it but now if that happens im gonna let that person die then pick up trash to stop them from maiming everyone else. even if that's the healer.... << this is in response to pulled on purpose not accidental pulls, its easy to tell the difference

WAR is a more complex job than PLD by virtue of its mitigation being in part active, and having an actual resource to think about (Wrath stacks).
PLD has no short-term planning to do. All of PLD's planning comes from when to pop their CDs.

Both jobs are strong. But PLD is more noob-friendly.

although I kinda agree with you here I don't think either tank role is really newb friendly at 50... before that your learning the ropes so who cares. post that you better know how to handle yourself and know the instances because otherwise dps and heals are going to be pulling from you constantly.

war's have to know there skills to be able to fully mitigate properly however even they have insta cd's that help out just as much as pld has them.

I don't play war much past getting it to 50 but I know I can pick it up and play it in dungeons and hold the hate ok but not as well as I can on pld since ive used that since day one. the biggest reason I know this is because I know the instances and skills on pld where as im not solid on skill knowledge and how they work on war but once there learned its no harder to play war

Speed pulls - preform your party.
Slow pulls - DF

End of discussion LOL

so not true, I speed run df all the time but based of my judgement of the group and how they handle the first pull. also if I run expert roulette I totally expect that dungeon to go as quickly as it can because its for experts << games wording not mine.

[Faelandaea]

so not true, I speed run df all the time but based of my judgement of the group and how they handle the first pull. also if I run expert roulette I totally expect that dungeon to go as quickly as it can because its for experts << games wording not mine.

The key phrase there is that you base it off the first pull. This makes you a good tank that makes a judgement call at the beginning.

The tank and the healer make the call (it's an equal call between how comfortable the healer is with healing and the tank is with taking the heat). What I was referring to in my post is that DF is not obligatory at all for a speed run. No one can force a tank or healer to speed run in DF, period. DPS do not have a say so, because they are not effected by the speed of the pull - all they have to do is kill everything they need to kill. So the key is to communicate between tank and healer and at least ask, "Hey are you comfortable with bigger pulls or a speed run?"

I am confident in my healing. If the tank takes a moment to ask me at the beginning, "hey can you heal bigger pulls?", not only will my answer be "Yes, let's go for it." but if the run goes without a hitch on his part that tank will DEFINITELY get a commendation from me at the end for communication, because communication is THE most important part of ANY teamwork in any MMO game.

I agree with your view on experts being meant for better players, but as healer I still very much appreciate if the tank at least clarifies how comfortable I am with the healing end before going nuts with a pull. I had a tank assume on an Ex roulette that we would carry him or something, I guess, because the moment we spawned in, even before I had a chance to cast protect, he took off without us and started pulling everything . . . and he died . . . very quickly. To add insult to injury, the guy had like 5000 HP . . . I didn't get a chance to examine him to see what gear he was wearing, but it must not have been at all up to par with Expert dungeons. I'd have examined him, but the DPS vote kicked him before I could even say "WTF?" Hehe. Now, as a cardinal rule, if a tank takes off right as we pop in and does not wait for his buffs, I just grab some popcorn and watch what happens. Most tanks I know will actually refuse to move until they have protect on. And this is a GOOD thing.

Now, on another end of a stick, if the healer or tank says that they are not comfy with speed pulls, never assume this means go total noob and pull only a couple mobs at a time. Again, communicate. There have been times where I was uncomfortable with a tank's gear and I said "Let's do a moderate pull first and see how we do, then go from there." You'd be surprised how well judgement calls can be made with good communication. And during this process I have on more than one occasion had tanks surprise me by having sup-par gear but great gameplay, using their skills and cool-downs in such a way that they were able to do the speed pulls successfully and efficiently.

[KisaiTenshi]

The key phrase there is that you base it off the first pull. This makes you a good tank that makes a judgement call at the beginning.

The tank and the healer make the call (it's an equal call between how comfortable the healer is with healing and the tank is with taking the heat). What I was referring to in my post is that DF is not obligatory at all for a speed run. No one can force a tank or healer to speed run in DF, period.

This pretty much. How often does the Tank ask? 1 in about 30 DF runs. I find it's a bit more fun to see if I can keep up with the Tank if they overpull, but that's very-dependent on what DPS are in the party. Two BLM, go for it.


As a healer, the "safe" pull is around 6 mobs/1 tank, the average dungeon is arranged in groups of 3, so pulling the two closest groups is usually safe and within the capability of a good healer with any DPS player configuration, even in low level dungeons. The game mechanics of the 4-man dungeons still assume you will tackle mobs one at a time, and sleep mobs when possible (though I haven't seen anyone use it properly in forever)

[Sousoulsu]

although I kinda agree with you here I don't think either tank role is really newb friendly at 50... before that your learning the ropes so who cares. post that you better know how to handle yourself and know the instances because otherwise dps and heals are going to be pulling from you constantly.

war's have to know there skills to be able to fully mitigate properly however even they have insta cd's that help out just as much as pld has them.

I don't play war much past getting it to 50 but I know I can pick it up and play it in dungeons and hold the hate ok but not as well as I can on pld since ive used that since day one. the biggest reason I know this is because I know the instances and skills on pld where as im not solid on skill knowledge and how they work on war but once there learned its no harder to play war

I think you overstate the complexity of tanking by a fair amount.

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guarenteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

The difficulty in WAR comes in appropriately keeping Maim/Storm's up, not overspending your TP, and using your Infuriate on the right moves in preparation for incoming damage.
PLD is very much passive in its mitigation, and only has 1 combo, and no buffs to maintain. Reactively using Shield Swipe does not really account for much skill, unless it's used on a mob at the right time to stop a weaponskill or something. Using Cover is pretty much a "Use on the WHM or BLM" thing, too.

PLD and WAR both have differing skillsets, but WAR is more complicated to play than PLD in measurable ways.

[Galgarion]

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guaranteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

That's actually a pretty big caveat. Unless a fresh 50 tank can no-life his way to a soldierly set in a week, he's guaranteed a month or so of not having any fun at all.