Why Speed Pulls?

[Kaiser-Ace]

Regardless your AOE output is still a fraction of what brd or blm is dishing out, single target the highest threat mob to your tank after your CDs are burned to free up your whm to AOE. Throw some stuns, it'll take 4 or 5 RoTs to equal one Holy. In the amount of time you pull of 5 RoTs whm would be at 3 holy spells, I'm just don't see it.

THAT right there is my my problem with your thinking. Heavy thrust is a single target attack. Locate highest priority target (Ochu, Malbor, Dragon ect, ect) and flank hit it with heavy thrust (All GOOD dragoons don't let their buffs stay off any longer than it takes them to charge up so that's invalid as most GOOD tanks use cool downs to not die but I've seen tanks die like Naked healers before cause they didn't) then use RoT to keep the heat on AND add a little damage to the others. Less damage that Black Mage and Bard? Well Duh, overpower and CoS don't do shit for DPS either compared to Flair/Fire 3 and Bard's AoE arsenal. But it always helps. The way I see it, if you're relying on a Dragoon's AoEs then you were screwed the minute you hit "Confirm" on the DF menu. Dragoons are high output Single target DPS with a few AoEs just to help out just like Black Mage is a high output Multi-target DPS with a few single targets so they help out better.

It seems to me that you've "Played" Dragoon but never actually took time to "learn" Dragoon. I can sit back and yell "Stupid tank! Hold your damn agro right!!" but if I haven't played as a tank then I have no idea that your War isn't using over power cause WARs burned up their TP really fast or that your PLD needs a few seconds to get his MP back after he flash spames to empty and cant use Riot Blade for having to use RoH combos to desperately hold hate off the mages.

[Ooshima]

What I can only say is

If everyone is decently geared and your team have 1 BLM, it is quite a complete waste not to pull one more pack. 2 packs aren't any different from 1 pack, any tank/healer meeting the dungeon entry requirements can handle that - fair. But be it 1 pack or 2 pack, your BLM will still be F3>F2>F2>F2>Flare anyways. Might as well right?

I am fine with both single pack pulls and pull the whole damn street, but when the tank does single pulls with a BLM in store... I don't know how to feel about that.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip.

As a carrier DPS I love every one of those ideas. Please give me something that makes me actually think "Uh, if we don't do something about "X" soon were screwed." And to add the platforming/multiple path ideas, make legit hidden passage ways like loot rooms and short cuts that aren't just "oh look the tonberry opened the door". Maybe make mini objectives in the dungeon to unlock them like "Don't let "X" npc die" or hide little clues and hints in the dungeon that don't always lead to the same place. say the loot catch from last run is now a trap, perma poison debuff till you find the antidote, ambushed and locked in with paralysis Debuf till you escape,ect ect, or make something like a "Bonus Boss" that drops rare gear unique to the Dungeon and make none of it guaranteed. (A run from hell being nothing but trap/ambush rooms the whole dungeon)

[Sousoulsu]

The healer can go nearly full dpsmode when the tank is not masspulling.
(f.e. if im whm i do not use a single heal in hardmode dungeons. I dps the full dungeon and only use Stoneskin to keep tank alive. -> he not loosing hp -> i can stick to Doing dps and dont have to switch to turn off cleric stance)

Potency of Stone 2: 170
Potency of Aero:50; 20 per tick (every 2 seconds for 18 seconds; 9 ticks)=230
Potency of Aero II:50; 40 per tick (every 2 seconds for 12s; 6 ticks)=290
Your average pull has 3-4 targets.
Aero and Aero II applied to each; aside from one which will die before Aero is worth casting, so Aero II on 3 targets, Aero on 2, and spamming stone II on one, refreshing Aero II when applicable, assuming 100% uptime of Aero II on all 3 targets and assuming 3 reapplications of Aero II on the targets. Sounds fair? Adjust if you like:
(Continues)

[Sousoulsu]

6270 per 12 seconds from Aeros, equating to 18810 for 3 refreshes of Aero 2 (letting Aero drop after 8s not coutned; meaning I'm being very generous); plus 850 from 5 stones (2.5s cast time, maybe give one more): 1020 potency from stone 2 per 12 seconds
A combined 19830 potency from the WHM for a pull.; assuming everything is done flawlessly, and also not factoring in that you cant be casting stone II while you're refreshing aero II.

Let's do a speedpull now: Average mobs in a speedpull varies, but I'd say 10 is a nice round number.
Holy:200 Potency in an AoE.
Each cast of Holy (3s) does 2000 potency.
With proper use of Tank CDs, Benediction, I can usually get 6 Holies off the bat; maybe more or less, so let's say:
Then I spam cure, stabalize the tank, and do 4 more Holies.
20,000 Potency from 10 Holies.
And that is without Presence of Mind.


(Continued)

[Sousoulsu]

Since you do a huge pull, Mana will regen before you do the next huge pull if you keep out of combat properly.
It is empirically superior to speedrun than it is to single-pull, if we're talking just pure Healer damage potency.
Not to mention the competencies of other party members' AoE.

10 is also a relatively conservative number; depending on dungeon. Obviously the benefits of speedpulling vary from dungeon to dungeon ,but it's never not good to speedpull if you're capable of it.

[Sousoulsu]

It seems to me that you've "Played" Dragoon but never actually took time to "learn" Dragoon.

Doom Spike is 160 Potency.
Ring of Thorns is 100 potency; 150 if used after Heavy Thrust, and costs 40 less TP than Doom Spike.
The reason you think Doom Spike is bad is probably because you are not good at targeting the correct thing and using your positioning to hit as many as possible.
That is a fault of the player, not the ability.
________
For AoE pulls, you go
Heavy Thrust[blood4blood]-Ring of Thorns[internal release]-Doom Spike spam; invigorate when needed; more Doom Spike until you need to refresh Heavy Thrust; then Heavy Thrust-Ring of Thorns; of course weaving Dragonfire Dive in when IR and B4B are up.
Once you get down to 250TP, you should do single-target on the highest health enemy and single-target the rest down.
_______
Let's take the 10 target test again.
HT->RoT=1670 Potency
Doom Spike can be used 5-6 times before needing to refresh HT.
Your TP limits you to only using it a max of 10-11 times before you need to stop (DRG isn't the best AOE of course).
So let's say you do as many "reps" of HT-RoT-DS spam as you can until you hit 200-250 TP:
17670 potency on 10 mobs; casting Doom Spike 10 times; HT->RoT twice.

(continued)

[Sousoulsu]

Now, let's look at the same scenario, 10 mobs, and see how RoT spam goes:
RoT potency=100. Ignoring the thing in common with the two methods (HT->RoT), let's look at how many RoTs you can do before you're at 200-250 TP.
14.
15670 potency on 10 targets with the RoT spam method.

It's clear that, being a skilled DRG, you will be able to tell when you should RoT (spread out mobs) or when you should Doom Spike(properly packed/LoS'd mobs by a competent speedrun tank).

RoT spam is not the way to go.
I do, however, think that a mix of RoT and DS is the best idea

all of the above about DRGs is, of course, irrelevant unless you need gear in that dungeon, because BRD BLM SMN and WHM are better AoE than a DRG. I just took the time to math it out to you to prove a point.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

And yet would you believe there was once a time someone was instant kicked from a dungeon (Brayflox HM to be exact) PURELY because he was a Dragoon?

I could hate speed running purely for that reason alone, but there's still plenty of reasons besides.

[Sousoulsu]

And yet would you believe there was once a time someone was instant kicked from a dungeon (Brayflox HM to be exact) PURELY because he was a Dragoon?

I could hate speed running purely for that reason alone, but there's still plenty of reasons besides.

I was once kicked from a dungeon for not using Regen on every party member.
is that a valid reason to hate anything aside from those particular misinformed people?

Go ahead and list your reasons to "hate" speedrunning.