The Hunt Public Shaming Needs to end

[Stihllodeing]

I find it funny that in a number of other threads people have told me that it's an MMO, you're supposed to play together with and help others. When it comes to hunts some of those same people are now basically saying screw everyone else, I will take my reward and not waste a second and the rest of the server be damned.

I get what you're saying, but I don't feel that's what's happening here. I get the impression that players are trying to clearly define what is considered to be proper hunting etiquette/s and how that may or may not violate the terms of service agreement.

Most players, not all, but most players are strictly objective when it comes to banning a player for ToS violations. Even if a player is doing something we don't think is polite or courteous, we (as a whole), are reluctant to encourage banning due to the precedent it could set in the future for others. This discussion is one of those examples most objective and responsible players who are in it for the long haul will partake in for the sake of objectivity and fairness, and what that could mean long term for our game.

People (especially online) are generally selfish and agenda driven. However, when faced with diversity and social complexities most people are able to be objective to a point of rationale. This is one of those cases where people may not like what someone does, but are objectively forced to say it's not a violation of laws or rules.

For instance, take that guy you know who cheats on his wife or girlfriend. You may not like him, you may think he's a douche, BUT you don't think he should go to prison. I'm sure there are better examples, but I think that example can demonstrate why this discussion is lacking cohesion. Take the example with a grain of salt.

I believe every woman who he tries to date should be notified ahead of time of his history, though.

Sadly, the world doesn't work in such a manner, but in FFXIV we can at least point out who's early pulling so that they can be kept from getting invited to parties accordingly.

If you're (the general "you") going to act like that one guy in the zombie apocalypse movie who thinks he can make it on his own by taking all the supplies and running, don't be surprised when you meet with the same fate.

Sadly indeed. But the fact of the matter is that pulling a hunt target early is not a violation within itself. If someone for some unknown reason wants to go out into open world and randomly pull hunts in order to die over and over with no rhyme or reason because that's what they find "fun", they are doing nothing wrong.

The "wrong" lies in their intention and one's ability to prove that intention. Defaming someone in a public chat has a clear intention and is clearly a violation. Simply saying in a shout "Dear xyzabc123, if you could kindly not pull the next hunt until the hunt party arrives it would be much appreciated" is not in any way harassment and should give the "hint" to anyone interested in blacklisting early pullers.

I think people should wait for hunt parties, I also believe people should be able to enjoy the game they way they see fit within the parameters set by Square Enix.

[Mercutial]

I've said previously that I felt the hunts were becoming a bit more civilized in the last few days on my server. Last night just confirmed this trend. I didn't notice any hate shouting. Pulls were patient but not overly drawn out. Hope the same is happening on other servers.

[RichardButte]

Ironically, do you know how you discourage people from sitting at the aytherites on their butts waiting for the call outs?

Sadly, it won't.

Aetheryte-sitters have the right idea because they just wait until they see an army of people teleport in and run off in one direction. If you're out looking for a hunt mob, you're still likely to get fucked over while the aetheryte-sitters get full credit, thus encouraging you to join them.

Believe me, I've thought about what you're suggesting, including informing only my FC and having them teleport in at a different aetheryte just to not notify the sitters and teach them a lesson. It's just too unlikely to work, though: I'd basically have to discover the mob first and then have NO ONE ELSE find it in the time between when I find it and my FC members running there from a different aetheryte.

All things considered, aetheryte-sitting is still the way to go, which is why so many people do it.

[RichardButte]

For instance, take that guy you know who cheats on his wife or girlfriend. You may not like him, you may think he's a douche, BUT you don't think he should go to prison. I'm sure there are better examples, but I think that example can demonstrate why this discussion is lacking cohesion. Take the example with a grain of salt.

I believe every woman who he tries to date should be notified ahead of time of his history, though.

Sadly, the world doesn't work in such a manner, but in FFXIV we can at least point out who's early pulling so that they can be kept from getting invited to parties accordingly.

If you're (the general "you") going to act like that one guy in the zombie apocalypse movie who thinks he can make it on his own by taking all the supplies and running, don't be surprised when you meet with the same fate.

[Snugglebutt]

If you're going to use forum behavior as a measurement for what's allowed in the game, then a simple "Will Smith pulled the mob" shout will never get anyone banned ever.

Saying someone pulled the mob on it's own is a fact and not a major problem, saying someone is an 'early puller' is an accusation and attempt to bad mouth that person...big difference. It's like saying Thayos Redblade is male vs Thayos Redblade is misogynistic male, one is accusatory and has negative connotations which might lead to harassment if shouted in a public forum while the other is just a statement of fact that the mob has been pulled by someone without the negative connotation that was done early or done to cause distress.

If someone in the public forum reads such a shout, they do not know if Thayos Redblade is misogynistic but everyone reading such a public chat is being led to believe is so based on the accusation alone, that accusation leads to potential harassment due to the negative connotations attached to misogyny. NyarukoW takes it even further and not only throws around such accusations but does so for the sole purpose of causing harassment and abuse, specifically telling people to harass that player through not only trying to prevent resurrection but also blacklistings and even going as far as to try and harass them till they leave the server as she admits in her own words.

It is a fallacy to try to use early pulls as a way to punish people in the first place, you cannot have something be described as early or late unless a predetermined time limit exists and that time limit being globally accepted by every single player. No such time limit exists, it is subjective and as such one persons early is another persons late. It cannot exist on a global scale if some people think 1 minute is enough, some people think 3 minutes is enough, some people think 5 minutes is enough etc and so on.

If try to rely and enforce mob rule because of such phrasing on a subjective variable then it does not stand on solid ground and should not be used as a method of causing distress and harassment to another player based on that. You also cannot decide after a pull what the time limit should of been because such consensus over a specific and exact time of which to base the use of 'early' on did not exist before it was pulled among every single player present and those who were on the way.

[NyarukoW]

in an earlier post you literally said "chase them off the server". ...what if the "puller" was a fresh player that had no idea what was going on? ..
..

You obviously don't do very good job of reading. See:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...00#post2740800

There is no reason to trust any random shouts. The early puller usually takes at least 3 to 5 pulls before people really catch on. Usually we discuss among ourselves who it might be first and then assign people to watch for them. And if it is some low level with sprout on their heads, we usually tell them to stay away so they do not die. It is only after we see the early puller do this over and over then we let everyone know, and better yet if we can get their dead corpse on the ground for confirmation it is even better. You don't need the insults and cussing that can get everyone else in trouble, you just need to correctly identify the troublemaker.

Or this:

It is not a witch hunt when you get the corpse of the early puller lying there on the ground. Funny thing is to date I've not had to black list anyone at hunts. Usually when everyone see their dead corpse the early pulling troll is usually too ashamed to show their face around the hunts. But if they insist and try it on subsequent elites, it is not witch hunt for everyone to black list the troll early puller nor is it incitement to have everyone on multiple LS blacklist them and remove them from the LS. It is our only power to defend the large number of player from their trolling for lulz.

And as for the FC that earned its terrible rep, they were chased off the server in the sense that they generated so much ill will that no one in their right mind would associate with them so they had to leave on their own volition. That is about as much chasing as we can do. The trolls delight in all the name calling, cussing, and other nonsense that get nowhere and they can use to get others in trouble. In any case, when the rest of the players are being abused by the trolls, the vast majority of us who are victims of their antics are not obligated to suffer more from them. We can organize and show solidarity by identifying and blacklisting them.

BTW only idiots would blacklist based on some random shouts or an accidental face pull. You want to save your 200 slots for the gil sellers and spammers. The first shout is an alert to the group to watch someone carefully. And if you see them early pulling again and again at every elite following that you know what their game is and that they are trolling everyone. This is not rocket science or all that hard to see. So on the next pull we watch the troll pull and get themselves killed and we will not res them and we got positive identification.

[Lycelle]

37 Pages and we're still at this?

[NyarukoW]

37 Pages and we're still at this?

Well people are stubborn and believe they have to the right troll everyone else on the server without consequence. That is NOT going to happen. Calling it "naming and shaming" doesn't change the fact that other players have the right to call them out for their bad behavior and blacklist them if they have to, and the trolls should be scared of the organized way that people working together can do counter the trolls disruptive and detrimental antics.

[RichardButte]

37 Pages and we're still at this?

I think we should just all agree on the following points:

-If the people who were out searching for hunt mobs (ie the people maing hunts happen) don't make it to the mob in time when it gets discovered elsewhere, it was pulled early, thus discouraging them from going out to look and instead encouraging aetheryte camping.

-There is no rule against early pulling, just as there is no rule against excluding players who pull early from parties. No one "HAS" to play with anyone else in this game and if you find their behavior objectionable you are free to exclude them.

-Scaling mob HP would solve the issue (as it as solved it in other MMOs).

[Izsha]

37 Pages and we're still at this?

yup. Because people keep getting hung up on the idea that the op and others are trying to silence free speech or something, even though it's been restated 1000 times that a simple statement of fact is not harrasment. What the op, me, and others are trying to point out is that "cloudxxxxsephiroth pulled" "please don't pull so quickly, thanks!" And such are not a big deal an no one is suggesting that you are not free to blacklist whoever you want for whatever reason.

We want the witch hunting, insulting, crybaby shouts to lay off and point out that THOSE actions are completely reportable because it is harassment. Wishing cancer on a fast puller is not justice. It's harrassment. Shouting in every zone you wander through about what a terrible person so and so is, is not safekeeping the hunt community. It's harrassment. Putting together online databases of people to blacklist and telling wveryone on the server to also blacklist those people isnt vigilante justice. Its harrassment. THOSE are the types of things that need to stop. If you and your ls have some civil discussion carefully identifying the pullers and deciding not to raise them, or kick them from your shell. Great. Good for you. Those aren't the issues people are saying are a problem.

everytime anyone says people perform witch hunts and harrassment the same few people say "no we dont, we just pass information in a civil manner to out ls" or some such. Great, we're not talking about YOU then. We're talking about the people who insult, defame, mistreat and encourage everyone on the server to also insult and mistreat people.

But apparently that's an impossible distinction for the official forums.