[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[gifthorse]

Or they could just stop all this weapon=class bull crap!!!!

Look take THM if I want to equip a sword to it I should be able to, I shouldn't do as much damage with it as a main sword user but I should be able to do it anyway. At the minute if I equip a sword I turn into a GLA, yes I can put all my abilities from THM onto my GLA but then that hampers my effectiveness as a THM. It should be the other way around my THM and mage skills should be fine and my sword skill not as effective as a stave ><

The whole system is broken and no amount of little tweaks is going to fix that it needs a complete overhaul not a plaster putting over the top of it. If you want to see why I will quote myself from another thread:

The staves and other items have magical properties which allow mages to channel their energy. The swords are just swords. So if you equip "just a sword" then it stands to reason that your THM skills would be hampered. I outlined above how they could add specialisations within the classes to accommodate the things you want.

Ignore it if you want, but Yoshi P already said there are two options they are going for: Advanced classes, which essentially would keep all the current classes. The other route is to make classic jobs specialisations, which would kind of replace the current classes while maintaining the armory system.

Perhaps they will add magical swords which can heighten your magical potency. Or perhaps a specialisation within the classes can help facilitate a sword-wielding mage to make it viable.

The thing i dislike about your proposal is that you are asking for THM to be a specialisation in and unto itself, which is worse, in my opinion than wanted specialisations within the THM class. I don't like the current classes because they lack direction, hence why I am encouraging specialisation within the classes.

You are suggesting they make THM a role/job instead of a class.

[Cairdeas]

Yeah the thing that causes magic to suck on non mage weapons its the weapons Magic Potency stat.

Most likely Fencer if it becomes a proper class will have fencing swords that have high potency (non-magic weapons normally cap around 5 magic potency while magic weapons have 50+)

[Rhomagus]

The staves and other items have magical properties which allow mages to channel their energy. The swords are just swords. So if you equip "just a sword" then it stands to reason that your THM skills would be hampered. I outlined above how they could add specialisations within the classes to accommodate the things you want.

Ignore it if you want, but Yoshi P already said there are two options they are going for: Advanced classes, which essentially would keep all the current classes. The other route is to make classic jobs specialisations, which would kind of replace the current classes while maintaining the armory system.

Perhaps they will add magical swords which can heighten your magical potency. Or perhaps a specialisation within the classes can help facilitate a sword-wielding mage to make it viable.

The thing i dislike about your proposal is that you are asking for THM to be a specialisation in and unto itself, which is worse, in my opinion than wanted specialisations within the THM class. I don't like the current classes because they lack direction, hence why I am encouraging specialisation within the classes.

You are suggesting they make THM a role/job instead of a class.

^This

Tweaking the current system is all that's necessary to fulfill the adaptability that the Armory gives everyone and the niche roles that people want to emulate.

Not everyone becomes the same "uber class" by setting the same abilities. If someone is setting the same abilities as everyone else in their party, they are gimping their party.

No reason for a Pugilist to set Profundity. No reason for a Thaumaturge to set Ferocity. No reason for an Archer to set Phalanx. There are reasons for other classes to set those abilities. If I'm a Gladiator I often find myself getting rid of Cure II and Sacrifice II. Only if I have a healer when in parties because I can just as easily set Second Wind or Bloodbath alone instead for those sticky situations, (when soloing I'd have all four). I use those extra slot costs to set abilities that would fit my role in the party, and I can change my role if the party make up changes, which is by far the best thing about the Armory.

If I'm set as a Damage Dealing Gladiator, and there is already a Defensive Gladiator, I'm going to focus myself on purely offensive abilities. In this case I'd probably only throw on Bloodbath or Second Wind but not both. Same with the hate grabbing abilities. I'll probably just set Provoke since I don't need to be grabbing multiple mobs but I'd still like to keep the stray one off the ranged classes. Still Precision would be a must in this case. Cadence is definitely going to be there if I'm in a competent party that does Battle Regimens. Ambidexterity in this case is kind of meh so I'd probably just leave it out or keep it just for the hell of it.

I'd fit all the weaponskills of different kinds that I could. Might have one or two straight damage ones, but I'd like to be able to use other skills more tactically. I'd have one to incapacitate the target we're fighting. The incapacitation ones are key as that's different for every monster. I'd also have a skill that would possibly enfeeble the target. Shield Bash if I have a shield and we're fighting casters. Trunksplitter if we're fighting Seedkin. Concussive Blow to help the other Gladiator etc. etc. Feint's a must for almost anything at anytime.

When it comes to Buffing abilities I'd probably put Ferocity, Raging Strike, and Hawk's Eye but that'd probably be it as by then at level 30 I think I'm full.

Now that setup would make no sense for the other Gladiator. They wouldn't be able to AoE provoke. They wouldn't be able to pull an add if provoke was still down. They'd be missing out on Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver. Foresight and Featherfoot aren't only awesome hate grabbing tools that also mitigate damage but setup very cheap weaponskills like Fracture and Haymaker respectively. Ambidexterity is a must right before the opening Provoke as that takes a big chunk of stamina. That Gladiator, despite the fact that we are the same class, should have a completely different setup than me. If they don't, they are gimping the party.

Now what if the Defensive Gladiator leaves? I now can fulfill their previous role by swapping my currently set abilities for new ones. As Gladiators we're completely different. If we're spec'd the same in the same party one of us is gimping the party. We have our own unique role that we are filling and thanks to the armory system in it's current state, we can adapt to a dynamically changing environment.

Party wants to fight a different mob? Set a new incapacitation weaponskill.

Someone wants to leave? Switch classes right then if you have it available or just swap abilities according to the party makeup.

Party completely disbands? Throw Cure and Sacrifice back on. Get rid of hate grabbing abilities altogether, and spec more balanced for a fun night by your lonesome.

When it comes to setting "the best abilities" it's completely different according to the situation. Hardcore players will be able to fit any number of different situations because they've leveled multiple classes accordingly. Casuals will still be able to fit roles in a party but they are limited in their adaptability if they haven't leveled horizontally.

With the limitations on some classes some abilities won't ever be open to those classes. Marauder will never be able to use Aegis Boon. Gladiator will never be able to use Tranquility. Pugilist will never get the enmity increase from Defender.

Tweaks are all that's necessary to make the sword wielding magic user. Tweaks are only necessary to keep a Thaumaturge from soloing Tarbh Uisge, if that's what is needed. Also take into account that some classes are better at doing things than others and that creativity and patience are what differentiate great solo players from the not so great.

Avesta could solo Shinryu but Red Mage was far from over powered in XI. He just had more patience, attention span, and a smarter battle strategy than anyone else, and that game had locked abilities.

Would the armory make sense for XI? No.
Why? Because XI was a different game. The abilities set up for XI were made in the context of XI. Monster strength, party makeup, party sizes, rewards, almost everything about what makes that game not this game is how it was balanced with community behavior and context taken into account. When developing new content the XIV team will need to take into account all of the different strategies that could be taken when exploring that content. They can scale the effectiveness of cross class abilities, action costs, stat effectiveness, gear quality etc. and still balance the game according to the context of it's player's behaviors and needs.

Do some things need to be fixed? Sure they do. I don't think anyone is recommending that they don't. Is it a flaw that requires the entire removal of the game's backbone? Definitely not. All of the complaints about class uniqueness can easily be addressed with Cairdeas' proposal while still maintaining the very core and appeal of XIV that sets it apart from the competition. I actually would prefer that they implement such a system as I love the Armory but I miss my classic Final Fantasy themes.

Even if someone chose to make a sword wielding magic user, that concept could easily be addressed by letting Disciples of War cast area of effect spells or by the introduction of a new class. If someone wants to make a staff wielding monk that attacks up close instead of from afar, include Cairdeas' idea about templates that alter the basic attack, or again, make a new class. What's the difference between a Staff and a Cane anyways? Those have different associations but are wielded in almost the same exact manner. Either way, it still does not require the entire scrapping of the Armory system.