[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[napalmninja]

The whole problem with the armory system is that it was designed with the intention of everyone mixing and matching skills in order to make what they want. Because it was designed this way every class or whatever you want to call it has no individuality. Like others have said earlier with something like this you no longer have red, black or white mages they all essentially become a gray mage.

There's a whole different discussing what I like here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...sic-FF-Classes.

[Malakhim]

...Because it was designed this way every class or whatever you want to call it has no individuality.

You're confusing individuality, which is exactly what the armory system allows, with pre-defined roles, which it definitely does not do. There's a huge difference.

If you want individuality, then you want the armory system. If you want to be pigeon-holed into a specific gameplay setup, then you want the traditional definition of an MMO class system.

If you want a mix of your own type of gameplay, but want to transmit to people that such and such role is what you do, then you should be all about option 2, which calls for class augments and specializations.

[Rhomagus]

You're confusing individuality, which is exactly what the armory system allows, with pre-defined roles, which it definitely does not do. There's a huge difference.

If you want individuality, then you want the armory system. If you want to be pigeon-holed into a specific gameplay setup, then you want the traditional definition of an MMO class system.

If you want a mix of your own type of gameplay, but want to transmit to people that such and such role is what you do, then you should be all about option 2, which calls for class augments and specializations.

^This (summing it up much more concisely than I could)

[Anathiel]

Now I've posted this reply on another thread, but I feel as if I shoud post it on all dev1033 threads, If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.
Specialization within a current job the way that the Yoshi-P words not just in his current interviews, but the interviews he's done since he's taken over "command" of the dev team...is really that of Final Fantasy Tactics venue. Not to mention the majority of the team that worked on FF:XI and is currently working on FF:XIV worked in Final Fantasy Tactics. Obviously they're going to have very strong influences from those games.
Now, don't get me wrong...in my mind, the only way to appease everyone is to make a FF:T-esque way of UNLOCKING advance jobs, once they are unlocked the way to level these jobs up is to use a talent tree system. Having a baseline of abilities for all jobs, and then having the advance jobs have the talent tree's. It makes the advance jobs more powerful than baseline jobs, which was the case in any final fantasy (sorry for all those gladiator, marauder lovers out there, just the way it's always been) and allows you to customize your advance job the way you want it to be.
For instance, I get gladiator to rank 10, marauder to rank 10, and thaumaturge to rank 10 (I apologize for spelling) and now I can unlock Dark Knight (my favored class)...now that I've unlocked Dark Knight, when I level it up I get "talent points" which can be put into any of the tree's which I consider. For this particular conversation we will say Dark Knight has 3 tree's: Enfeebling, Tanking, Damage Dealing. Remember this is just for example...I always thought DRK could've been a tank if played properly lol ^^; Now, I unlock dark knight, in order to prevent over powering the advance jobs it would have to start at a higher level as to prevent getting too many talent tree points...actually talent tree points could just start with a higher level. Let's say rank 20, I don't have a diagram of how the tree's would play out, I'm just asking you to pretend along with me. Now, I want to cross spec so I'm playing a final fantasy XI style dark knight, half enfeebling and half damage dealing...you see where I'm going now? I hope so. But look, I hate the cookie cutter of paladins have to be tanks, or gladiators...so now I can respec my talent tree points to be a tank/enfeebler, changing my play style but still giving the game that overall sense of diversity that everyone is craving right now.

Now that I'm thinking of it, it shouldn't be a problem that any job could get the talent points and be able to "spec" in any way of playing. Um...Gladiator could have a talent tree spec open up at rank 20, the three specs being Spike Damage (two handed swords), Tanking (Sword and Shield), or DPS (Sword and shield with offense passive/active abilities).
Now most of the base classes we have now would have to be nerfed, and the talent tree's would be able to buff them back up again but at the cost of "I have a gladiator that can use black magic, white magic, pugilist, and archer abilities" which in my opinion should go anyways. Of course I think that the armory system should be gotten rid of, I don't like, never really did. If it's too much to get rid of, that's fine...I'm sure they could think of something, it's not my job to and I'm going to trust them (the dev team) on that one.

If I happen to find a diagram, or illustration that could better make my opinion known, then I will paste it in a new reply. If I just edit my current post it'll be lost in 5 minutes ^^;;;

[Cairdeas]

Rhomagus a lot of the tweaks necessary are simply allowing for certain weapons in a Class to have Magic Potency. Right now non mage weapons have 0-low Magic Potency. While mage weapons have 50+ magic potency. If you want to play as a character who uses a low magic potency weapon you need to augment your loadout with equipment items that replace the missing magic potency. There are tiaras and earrings that do this.

But SE needs to add more.

[Lamhirh]

I liked the post. You preety much expressed my feelings. I love present system, and i believe i actually would quit game if it get removed. ( or maybe not, we will see) But on topic...Classes, jobs and roles, are something we impose on ourselves. When you have good friends you pla alot this system is awesome. becouse in reality role is something we decide on. We need tank in party, i take class and equipment and than fill skills that will make me a tank. Healer? weapon +skills i am healer. What i would love tho would be ability to save skill configurations, without painfully making macros. Need to switch role for part, i go to skills, select drop butto/drop down menu/whatever/ for predefined/user defined skill set. Quick and painless.

[Cairdeas]

I liked the post. You preety much expressed my feelings. I love present system, and i believe i actually would quit game if it get removed. ( or maybe not, we will see) But on topic...Classes, jobs and roles, are something we impose on ourselves. When you have good friends you pla alot this system is awesome. becouse in reality role is something we decide on. We need tank in party, i take class and equipment and than fill skills that will make me a tank. Healer? weapon +skills i am healer. What i would love tho would be ability to save skill configurations, without painfully making macros. Need to switch role for part, i go to skills, select drop butto/drop down menu/whatever/ for predefined/user defined skill set. Quick and painless.

That Idea was included into my Idea thread. You equip a Job and on the first time you equip it, its loads you out with the core skills for that Job learned from all classes already. You can then modify the load out as you see fit and from then on that Job loadout is Saved.

[gifthorse]

That Idea was included into my Idea thread. You equip a Job and on the first time you equip it, its loads you out with the core skills for that Job learned from all classes already. You can then modify the load out as you see fit and from then on that Job loadout is Saved.

Kind of like an automatic macro like in Call of Duty.

I hope Yoshi and the development team decide on option B of their proposal. This option suggests keeping the classes as they are now with some tweaks, and then encouraging and fostering specialisations. They just need to support some staple FF jobs with the armory system and I think all will be satisfied.

THe only hiccup in the road comes when dealing with the concept of a sword wielding mage. The two reasons that prevent a mage of this type from being viable is low magic potency, as we've discussed, and also the lack of AoE magics. Previously MP management was a huge issue with a melee mage, but now that's out of the equation, only these two problems remain.

Creating a red-mage for example, is near impossible under the current system. So the developers will need to support players who decide to create this role in other ways; new weapons, extra stats, etc.

[Cairdeas]

Belief is the still not unlocked "Fencer" would be a magic based weapon class that would allow for a closer loadout for Red Mage.

[gifthorse]

Belief is the still not unlocked "Fencer" would be a magic based weapon class that would allow for a closer loadout for Red Mage.

Yeah, I saw that once upon a time. Hopefully it gets implemented one day soon. I really want to emulate a red mage someday.