[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[Cairdeas]

Armoury: A Collection of Weapons and Tools in a single location.


I think one of the largest misconceptions flowing around the FFXIV fanbase, at least amongst the English and European Demographics, is that the Weapon Based Classes from the Armoury System in Final Fantasy XIV are interchangeable amongst the Traditional Jobs from previous Final Fantasy Job systems. Ultimately this is not the actual case, so we will now delve into this and try and re-explain the Armoury System as it currently stands so that we can better understand and anticipate upcoming changes.

In Final Fantasy XIV each Weapon belongs to a collection of other weapons of its type to form a “Class”. When equipping a weapon from a class of weapons, you become a Weapon Specialist of that class. Training with the weapon of that class, you will then learn skills associated with that weapon but allow for you to fulfill multiple roles. The weapon itself determines a few things about your combat style, This is generally the style of damage you deal as well as small niche traits native only to certain classes of weapons. Axes for instance use wide broad swings and you gain a bonus when you allow yourself to become balanced in place.

Traditional Jobs on the other hand are a collection of skills organized to allow for an individual to perform a specific role, this allows for each Job to be a Role Specialist. Most Jobs are designed only to operate within their Specialized Roles while only a few are capable of standing in for other Roles. Jobs, unlike Weapon Classes, are not limited to one class of weapons. As an example, a Warrior(Fighter) while possibly preferring Two-Handed Axes can be proficient with One-Hand Axes, Shields, Swords, Two-Handed Swords, Spears and Scyths, Knuckles, and even Clubs. They can also use Bows, Crossbows, Boomerangs, and other throwing weapons.

Weapon Classes should then not be confused with Jobs from previous Final Fantasy Job systems. Weapon Classes on their own are not Role Specialists like those Traditional Jobs from Previous Final Fantasy games. Instead taking skills you learned from studying with all of the weapons in your Armoury you can recreate most of the Traditional Jobs. Future weapon classes as they are introduced will then allow for more and more of the Jobs to be recreated as well.



I think one of the reasons this became so hidden to most of the player base is how the English Localization was done. The Japanese Nomenclature for Gladiator consisted of 士 which translates to “User” or “Specialist”, 術 which translates to “Art”, as well as the Weapon itself 剣 “Sword”. This became 剣術士 (ken-jutsu-shi) which trans-literally means “Sword Art User” or “User of the Sword Arts”

The Localization team took this nomenclature and branched it into English from its core. 剣 translates simplistically into Sword in English, but simply calling them “Sword User” would be too bland to most English speakers so they added flair. Sword in Latin is Gladius, and -ātor means the User or Agent Of. So the Latin translation for “Sword User” is Gladiator. Gladiator being a much less bland term was then used but means the same thing as 剣術士 (ken-jutsu-shi), Sword User.

Each class is the same, in Japanese the name of each Class is simply the name of the weapon it uses and the symbol for user, And the English version is the Latin translation of the same root terms.

剣術士 → Sword User｜Sword User→Gladius (Latin: Sword)+ -ātor (Latin: Agent) → Gladiator

格闘士 → Hand-to-Hand User｜Fist User → Pugil (Latin: Fist) + -ist (Latin: Practitioner) → Pugilist

弓術士 → Bow User｜Bow User → Arcus (Latin: Bow) + -er (Defines a User from his Tool) → Archer

槍術士 → Lance User｜Lance User → Lancea (Latin: Lance) + er (Defines a User from his Tool) → Lancer

No this pattern isn’t present for all the Classes. Marauder is not some mix of a Latin word for Axe and one of the many ways to differentiate the Tool from its User. But the Marauders(Origin French) who occupied what is modern day France were known as the Franks and their menacing axes were Francisca. The Francisca caused them to become feared amongst most of Europe until its falling out of use. So you should look at all of the combat Classes as the following.

Gladiator > Sword User
Pugilist > Hand To Hand(Fist) User
Archer > Bow User
Lancer > Lance User
Marauder > Axe User


But that doesn’t translate with the Magic Discipline exactly?
No, it doesn’t, Thaumaturge is simply someone with magical powers or who can perform miracles, the most popular historical miracle being resurrection. While a Conjurer is someone using incantations or charms to cast magical spells. So how do you Classify them if not by their weapon? Their equipped weapon isn’t their real weapon. Its a tool that lets them channel their real Weapon. How they distribute their magic.

Conjurers: Single hit healing and damaging spells distributed through large Circular Areas of Effect.

Thaumaturge: Spells that heal or deal damage over time distributed through a Cone Area of Effect.


In the end Classes and Jobs are mutually interdependent but not interlocked or synonymous. As the game is currently the Classic Jobs are not directly implemented in the game, but all the tools needed to "Recreate" them are currently present but any choice to do so must be self imposed which is the beauty of the system at its core.

For Instance, to recreate a "Paladin" in its Classical Job Sense, you can take any of the Weapon Classes and give them White Magic, Defensive Abilities, and Enmity Control. Even though it is not built in game to say "I am a Paladin!" the Idea/Theory/Role is there and it is up to the player themselves to say "I am a Paladin!" Again, this is one of the great features of the current system, if you wanted to you could "Make a Paladin" out of any of the base Weapon Classes Even the Magic Classes. You might not be the best Paladin but you are a Paladin.

With this system a Gladiator (Sword User) can be a Paladin, Warrior, Thief, Dark Knight, Ninja, Mystic Knight, Samurai, etc.

And a Paladin can be a Gladiator (Sword User), Lancer (Lance User), Sentinel (Shield User), Conjurer (Circle Area Magic), or Thaumaturge (Cone Area Magic).

If you take that into account then the comments “Classes ARE Jobs” in the terms and theory present in Final Fantasy XI/V is incorrect and instead it should be “Any Job Can Be Any Weapon Class, and Vis Versa.”

But looking forward to the future, to implement the Traditional Jobs we just need a system that mounts on top of the Armoury System and gives a Player a Bonus for following the path of a Job without limiting the ability to modify their skills as they choose, or negates the effectiveness of having the Class be its own Entity.

http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

[Xatsh]

The Op is right Classes do not equal Jobs, they are the building block to make jobs. If you look at everything in the game almost all the abilities in FFXI are present just spread out among all the classes. Put all those abilities back together on 1 class and you have a very unique job.

The reason why everyone is complaining everything plays the same is because people are playing the classes and not jobs. If you truly make something out of the different classes then you make something unique.

Make a Pld out of your glad and at rank 50 you can actually negate almost all the dmg you take for like 40secs out of every min. You can cure yourself, and hold hate on 2-3 mobs at once. Your dmg will fail, but hey you are a tank.

With almost all my classes above 30 now I can say no 2 job really play the same when you build something with them.

Archer is a range dd with high spike dmg

Lnc gets Stamina crazy fast and builds tp like mad on top of that has strong debuff and buff attacks. A combination of dragoon/sam/dnc from 11 almost.

Pug is an Evasion Tank and decent dd. Cross between nin/mnk

Mar is a tank or a Warrior like class depending on how you build it.

Glad is well a tank, they suck at dd. BUt there is no class in this game able to negate as much dmg as this class. Basically the Pld of this game if you build it right.

Conj is the main healer (has all the status and cure spells) and the nuker (although it is weak at that atm...)

Thurm is a sorta rdm/drk hybrid. Has all the strong debuff spells and absorb spells (which combined with roaming soul and the transfer spell can give a dd or a tank 100secs of a buff)

The armory system is literally what you make out of it... if you do not make anything out of it you get 7 blank canvases which all look the same.

[Cairdeas]

I'd like to reiterate.

All Conjurer is a Direct Magic User (Someone who casts Single Unit Spells that deal all the damage or healing at one time.)
All Thaumaturge is is a Over Time Magic User (Someone who Casts Spells that work over time instead of doing everything all at once.)

Neither is a White Mage or Red Mage, They But you can make a White Mage or Red Mage by pulling the right spells and skills from here and there.

[Rau]

I'd like to reiterate.

All Conjurer is a Direct Magic User (Someone who casts Single Unit Spells that deal all the damage or healing at one time.)
All Thaumaturge is is a Over Time Magic User (Someone who Casts Spells that work over time instead of doing everything all at once.)

Neither is a White Mage or Red Mage, They But you can make a White Mage or Red Mage by pulling the right spells and skills from here and there.

It's funny because thm is better at both

[Shazaam]

The Op is right Classes do not equal Jobs, they are the building block to make jobs....
The armory system is literally what you make out of it... if you do not make anything out of it you get 7 blank canvases which all look the same.

Unfortunately, they DON'T equal Jobs. And the building blocks are weak. The system is what we HAVE made of it, not what we will make of it, and the system has failed, unfortunately. Many of the current complaints have been about the inability to differentiate the classes. That criticism is not going to fade from a defense of the current system. The game HAS to change or it will fail.

I don't want this game to fail, but I do realize that the current system of F2P will not support this game or bring in new customers. If you think that you can make a PLD out of your GLD, then all props to you, but it isn't cutting it for the people who quit the game, and it certainly isn't attracting new players.

If you REALLY love this game and want it to succeed, then please don't defend the original systems, as much as you may like them, because they will end this game quickly.

The armory system is a great idea, but it does not allow the building blocks to create your own 'jobs', it needs to change. Add a class/job system on TOP of the already existing system, and you instantly create a few things:
1)The 'Final Fantasy' feel
2)A goal for low-mid level players to aim for
3)Class differential that allows players to feel unique in a group

Cairdeas, I think you are wrong in your statements, well-intentioned, but wrong. You CANNOT make a 'white or red mage by pulling the right skills from here and there'... you just make a 'grey mage'. Grey is mushy and boring. 'Any class can be any job'... that is gray. That is what the majority of MMO gamers have decided. Unfortunately, there is no MMO without a large player base.

I love the FF franchise and would like nothing less than to see FFXIV have a rich and fulfilling future. There needs to be change for that to happen.

[gifthorse]

Unfortunately, they DON'T equal Jobs. And the building blocks are weak. The system is what we HAVE made of it, not what we will make of it, and the system has failed, unfortunately. Many of the current complaints have been about the inability to differentiate the classes. That criticism is not going to fade from a defense of the current system. The game HAS to change or it will fail.

I don't want this game to fail, but I do realize that the current system of F2P will not support this game or bring in new customers. If you think that you can make a PLD out of your GLD, then all props to you, but it isn't cutting it for the people who quit the game, and it certainly isn't attracting new players.

If you REALLY love this game and want it to succeed, then please don't defend the original systems, as much as you may like them, because they will end this game quickly.

The armory system is a great idea, but it does not allow the building blocks to create your own 'jobs', it needs to change. Add a class/job system on TOP of the already existing system, and you instantly create a few things:
1)The 'Final Fantasy' feel
2)A goal for low-mid level players to aim for
3)Class differential that allows players to feel unique in a group

Cairdeas, I think you are wrong in your statements, well-intentioned, but wrong. You CANNOT make a 'white or red mage by pulling the right skills from here and there'... you just make a 'grey mage'. Grey is mushy and boring. 'Any class can be any job'... that is gray. That is what the majority of MMO gamers have decided. Unfortunately, there is no MMO without a large player base.

I love the FF franchise and would like nothing less than to see FFXIV have a rich and fulfilling future. There needs to be change for that to happen.

I don't think this thread is a defence of the original system so much as an explanation of the underlying concept. Anyway, I think both systems can coexist, the armory system and a job system.

The Original Poster mentioned being able to assign/attach a name to your load-out. Now, suppose that if in attaching this name, your character received a boost to relevant abilities/stats and at the same time, received a decrease to certain other abilities. If this was the case, then you would become a specilist in that role, and you COULD become classic Final Fantasy staple job you always dreamed of playing.

For example, say you wanted to play the role of a Black Mage in a party. You've levelled up both mages to a certain level and have enough skills to support this role. You then opt to assign yourself the title "Black Mage", and with that comes a boost to your offensive spells. But at the same time it decreases the effectiveness of your defensive and healing spells. So, in effect, you're a very good DD, but a bad healer. Hence BLM.

All the armory system ever needed was extra support from the development team.

With the upcoming Role-specific gear (see the BLM gear sketches in the latest producers letter), then such a system could be even more viable by allowing us as players to demonstrate our roles in the gear that we wear.

With the changes outlined above, you could have the best of both worlds: freedom to play as you wish, role differentiation, classic final fantasy atmosphere, and endless possibilities.

[Lacard]

I really liked the way you phrased all this. It makes a lot of sense. I for one have also "created" a paladin by leveling the needed classes.

[Cairdeas]

I really liked the way you phrased all this. It makes a lot of sense. I for one have also "created" a paladin by leveling the needed classes.

All we need now is a system that rewards us for doing so by calling us Paladins in game that doesn't destroy the current open system

[Shazaam]

What we need are actual Paladins, and not a new title.

[AtryxEtair]

I very much enjoyed reading this. I have to get behind you on your opinions and views on this. Having set jobs to choose from and having automatically allocated abilities to go with them would also promote more horizontal leveling that most seem to despise.