[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

NOTE:If you're not going to read the entire post and understand it before making suggestions/comments then please just skip this thread entirely. Providing input without understanding what is being proposed is detrimental to the process. Again... If you cannot follow this simple instruction then hit the back button.


I posted this, somewhat, really deep into another thread and I don't want it to get lost in the wave of bad posts so I'll make a new thread for it.

Let's start with a quote from Eorzapedia:

Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing classes.

Now this is exactly what I've been thinking to myself since I first started witnessing the blatant flaws in our current classes/armory system. In this post I'll lay out the problem, the solution, how to execute, and the post-implementation benefits of this proposal. Now let's start with:


CURRENT PROBLEMS

MAJOR:

1. No predefined roles:
There’s currently nothing that says anything about what you're supposed to do with these classes aside from the obvious (GLA has a shield = probably tank, ARC is um... obviously damage dealer). But what about CON/THM or PUG/MRD? I'm sure there are players out there that would love to be a damage dealer on their CON/THMs but seem to fall into the pits of healing since their nukes/dots are very inefficient. PUG/MRDs have a few abilities that seem to imply that it should be the one taking damage but its not often that you find one tanking. Now if you're going to suggest that these abilities should be obtained for use on other jobs then you should read #2.

2. Lack of class uniqueness:
Let's face it, everybody is a mix of everything with the Armory System and through all its freedom it’s actually crippling the gameplay for players. Players need abilities that are unique to their class and can’t be used cross-class. This way they can feel good about playing the classes they love. It's very disheartening to see players using high level abilities from other classes because of their strength. It might be cool for the players but what you're doing is taking away from that classes' identity. There is no reason to continue playing that class once you get X/Y/Z skills. I don't know many people that leveled LNC to 50, but I can name a few dozen that leveled it to 20 for Feint and the +movement trait while in active mode.

MINOR:

1. Final Fantasy Identification:
Players feel that they cannot relate to the current classes because they are not staples in the franchise and have just been thrown together for this game. This is not an issue for current players since we're obviously still playing. It's an issue for prospective players. XI players or FF players in general that stayed away from XIV because they felt they couldn’t relate. What we have now may or may not be acceptable to you but what is more important is what will bring players back in the long run.


All these issues and a few others related to classes can be accomplished with one giant rock.


SOLUTION - SPECIALIZATIONS/TALENT TREES WITH FF NAMES

Yes, we take Final Fantasy classes and use them as specialization classes for the current disciplines. You can call them advanced classes, specializations or simply talent trees but it's ALL the same exact thing. You're taking something and evolving it. In FF1 you took your Warrior and turned him into a Knight. Same concept except we don’t want the progression to be that linear in an MMO.

Edit (3/12/11):
Please note that the fact that its used in other MMOs is not a valid argument against the proposal. I called them "talent trees" because they are easily understandable to players that play MMOs. I'm really just referring to it as a concept which is something we have now with the Action Points Menu... only thing is that I'm adding more abilities (redistributing some), traits and a GUI to it. To help explain this better I'll use pictures:

This:

http://i52.tinypic.com/vymlpe.jpg

is the same as this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

is the same as this:

http://www.ffnemesis.com/ff10/images/sphere_grid.jpg

is the same as this:

http://www.ffodyssey.com/ff12/ff12_license_board.jpg

is the same as this:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...crystarium.jpg

is the same as this:

http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...ighttalent.jpg

So that is why I feel that "It's in every MMO" is not a valid argument because its actually in almost every modern game with RPG elements - all that changed was the look.

If you have legit complaints about this proposal I would like to hear them; this is far from perfect and I'm sure that with the communities' input it can be made better.


EXECUTION OF SPECIALIZATION WITHIN CURRENT SYSTEM

Introduce the Advanced Classes/Specs at a milestone level for players in the form of a class quest. Somewhere mid grind; 25 or 30 sounds good. These quests will let the players choose what path they would to go in. Of course, you still let players do all the quests, assuming they are of rank, so that they may have the option to switch in the future. Each of these paths has their own unique quest chains with cut-scenes/lore that eventually lead to Advanced Class/Spec specific armor/weapon at higher ranks.

Let's take the Gladiator for example:

After completion of the initial spec quest you now start earning talent points for each Rank after 30. These points will be used to further your Gladiator into the specs. If you want to deal damage then you can points into Dark Knight and if you want to tank you can do Paladin quest (these are non-repeatable quests btw) and put points into that.

These points will be used not only on traits/talents that raise your tanking or damage dealing capabilities but for abilities that will be specific to that spec as well. These abilities will not be able to be used on any other classes because they require talent points. You also need to make these abilities the defining point of the spec or the bread and butter.

For these talents SE will need to be creative. Eventually there will be one cookie-cutter spec but that will be after all the theory-crafting is done by most of the posters on BG. There needs to be more talents than you can put points in so that players have to decide what is most important to them and their parties.

Get really creative with these talents; introduce new weapon types that can only be used with that talent. Dark Knight will be able to equip Great Swords. Another talent that would work with Dark Knight is one that increases the player's damage if they use both hands for a weapon. This will make Gladiators doing the Dark Knight path shy away from shields. I'm just throwing a few ideas here but the possibilities are endless by mixing the Armory System with specs.

Players can still continue to play without spending their talent points but they will be crippling their play since specializing into a certain class would clearly be an upgrade. Don't think of this as replacing the current classes - you're not. You're evolving that Gladiator into a Paladin. People can call it a “Gladadin” if it makes them feel better but at its core; this is what an Advanced Class is. They used that term incorrectly in FFXI; they were just extra classes that required a quest to unlock. An "Advanced Class" is an evolution of the "Base Class" and that’s what this is accomplishing.

[Kurokikaze]

Now let's see how this pans out for our Gladiator.

- Quest is made available from guild at Rank 30. Trials of the Paladin or the Dark Knight.
* Paladin = Tank / increased damage mitigation, few minor healing spells
* Dark Knight = DD / increased damage output, few minor damage/debuff/absorbs spells
- For this example I'll pick PLD (its what I want to play).
- At rank 36 I'll get the Gladiator Quest and do it normally. Rage of Halone would be a skill that both specs could use (its obviously a tank skill so PLD would have talents to buff the output on it or turn some of that damage taken while charging into HP)
- At rank 40-42 I'll get a PLD Quest for a spec-specific weapon. Does this sound familar to anybody?
- At 46 (assuming the cap isn't increased for a while) we can introduce the quest chain for Artifact Armor.
- By max rank I'll have all my points used up in talents that help me perform my predefined role in groups and wearing some shiny armor that is indicative of a Final Fantasy class that I want to play.


I have effectively taken things from WoW/FFXI/FF in general and mixed them together. Yoshi-P said it himself; The fact that FFXIV tries to be so different from other games, even its predecessor, is what is harming it.

Flowchart for paths by Shuichi of BG forums: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7...branchflow.png

FFXIV under Tanaka: Reinvent the wheel, end up with a square and wonder why it won’t roll.

For those that need a picture: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...alent-Tree.jpg

Example of what the tree could look like for Conjurer by Rhianu: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...censeBoard.png

Example of the specs by Solracht of BG:
http://i53.tinypic.com/5aqb6g.jpg

Talent trees or license board - they're both the same thing.

That’s a talent tree for the Paladin in World of Warcraft. What I'm proposing is in a sense the exact same thing except I'm using names that are staples in the Final Fantasy franchise. This will give players the sense that they are playing an "old school class" all while balancing current classes/skills (not replacing) and introducing new and exciting content for the game.

When SE decides to roll out new mid-high level content they must be balanced for use with these Advanced Classes and not the Base Class. These talents and path choice must be made so obvious and an overall upgrade to our base class that players will not need to use the base beyond a certain point. It'll still be a Gladiator - I just turned it into a Paladin down the road.

Now SE doesn't have to use this same example that I gave with Gladiator evolving into a Paladin or Dark Knight. Gladiator could also evolve into a Warrior but personally I feel that option is better left for Marauder.

Let's take a look at a few of the possible Advanced Classes / Specializations that can be made from our current classes:

Gladiator -> Paladin (tank) / Dark Knight (damage) / Thief (damage)
Marauder -> Warrior (damage or tank) / Berserker (damage)
Archer -> Ranger (damage) / Musketeer (damage) / Corsair (buffer) / Cannoneer (damage)
Lancer -> Dragoon (damage) / Samurai (damage or tank)
Pugilist -> Monk (damage or tank) / Ninja (damage or tank) / Thief (damage)

Conjurer -> Black Mage (damage) / White Mage (healer)
Thaumaturge -> Red Mage (heals/debuff) / Time Mage (debuff) / Summoner (damage or healer) / Mystic Knight (tank) / Necromancer (damage or tank)

These are examples using classes from Final Fantasy games. Some of these options might seem weird at first but that’s because I'm taking into consideration that Weapons = Classes in this game. In the case of Gladiator I added Thief because the "Dagger" weapon is currently considered a "Sword". I'm aware that with the way skills are currently distributed Thief would be a better option for Pugilist so I left it up there. Again these are EXAMPLES that others and myself have came up with, this not a clear cut path.

MINOR UPDATE:

Class Icons: There is no need to change them, just recolor them for specs. Pick a color that defines the spec and use it in the class icon. White mage would be the Conjurer icon but white. I don't think I need to give more examples... For most of the classes (from XI) that I listed there seems to be a definitive color already - just look at that classes' Artifact Armor.


POST-IMPLEMENTATION BENEFITS

Let's see what this does in regards to addressing the issues listed at the top of the post.

MAJOR:

1. No predefined roles:
These specs as you can see above will essentially be the roles that players take in parties. Gladiator/Paladin would be a tank and Gladiator/Dark Knight would be a damage dealer. People will know exactly what they have to do and work on building their characters to better fit those roles in parties. We have players in the game that currently don't have a clue what they should be doing because nothing has been set in stone for the player; Players wearing gear that is questionable for their class (I'm aware that stats don't work and that’s a WHOLE other issue that needs to be addressed shortly after fixing classes) or Thaumaturges tanking and soloing HNMs (the current system is broken and has allowed this) or Conjurers that want to deal damage because they have high tiered spells but can’t because any caster in this game is automatically a healer as established by the community.

2. Lack of class uniqueness:
The roles/advanced classes/specialization will be what makes these classes unique. They will have traits and abilities that can only be used while in that spec. In order to appease the players that have grown fond of using abilities from other disciplines; let them use skills from the class up until a certain rank or go through them all up to a certain rank and re-balance them for use cross-class. Unfortunately the thing that is repeated in both methods is "up to a certain rank" - don't be fooled: the line must be drawn somewhere to avoid exploiting and promote uniqueness across all classes. Personally I would re-balance skills up to Rank 20 and draw the line there. I can hear the complaints already from people who use Rank 30+ skills on other classes but these people are oblivious to the fact that that is killing other classes. Unfortunately this is something that I feel must be done. Whether or not SE decides to use specs – it’s going to happen, it’s just a matter of when (like the nerf to Punishing Barbs).

MINOR

1. Final Fantasy Identification:
Players who feel like the current classes are alienated from the series will no longer feel that way. Sure they will be starting as a class they are unfamiliar with but they will work towards a class they want to play. I'm going to use FFXI as an example for this to better explain the path:

After beta was over I decided that for FFXI-PC release I would level the Dragoon class. In order to do this I chose to do Warrior and level with a spear (because that was allowed) so that when I hit 30 and do the quest I could be well prepped for playing Dragoon. Others players may have done this as well, they definitely did it for other classes (Leveled WHM to play SMN). We, the players, chose certain paths because it lead to:
1) Playing the class we wanted.
2) The skills/weapon ranks from the previous class can be used to better serve the new class.

For FFXIV's case; all we're doing is removing the choice with this proposal. SE is telling you that if you want to play that Summoner you need to start as a Thaumaturge. A choice we would've made on our own using our better judgment. "These skills would be useful on my Summoner."

If you look at it this way; it is essentially the same thing with the exact same end results.


CLOSING

SE will have successfully addressed these issues and many more that plague the Armory System by introducing this into the game. This is an extension of the Armory System, rebalancing of abilities, and a culmination of other fixes to Final Fantasy XIV under the guise of the Dev Issue 1033: Class Name Changes.

This is a proposal by myself and others on the Blue Gartr Forums; feel free to agree/disagree/comment/change but ultimately it is up to SE to do what needs to be done.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Let me know if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

[Kurokikaze]

This section is exclusively for things that aren't in the posts above that were an after thought based on questions asked by other posters.

COMPILATION OF BALANCES AND MODIFICATIONS BASED ON FEEDBACK

- Path introductory quest level requirement reduced to Lv20. (Unsure if FFT unlocks will be used - Players want but it seems grindy and unnecessary.)
- Removal of Physical Level and it's Stat Allocation.
- When removing talents from a certain tree ones stats will go down to the stats for the base class. Abilities/Traits/Skills for that particular spec will be unequipped. (Something will need be done in regards to Weapon = Class since removing a talent like "Equip Kunai" would effectively remove that weapon.)
- The Base Class will be the one acquiring points. They are free to turn into an Advanced Class by putting points in.
- Player will retain level when switching specs. Progress is not lost.
- Players are able to branch out into another spec but minimum amount of points must be spent in 1 spec before moving into another. Example: 30 in MNK / 5 in NIN (for some Evasion+% buff).
- Minimum amount of points must be spent to reach next tier of a particular tree. Example: This would make it so that MNKs cant reach all the way down and steal Kunais from NIN.
- For players that are currently above the rank which introduces specializations; all they need to do is complete the quest and they will receive all their points immediately. If a player is 50 they will be able to spec into whatever Advanced Class branches out from their current Base Class.
- A template feature that would allow players to swap to previously saved specs/talents/abilities/gear configurations by using 1 button would be a great addition (not just to this - but the game in general).

Edit (3/16/11):
- Base classes have their own set of abilities/traits/skills/spells which are generic. These can be used cross class and spec.
- Specs have their own set of abilities/traits/skills/spells which can only be used by that spec.
- You are free to change specs whenever. Points need to be redistributed unless SE adds templates.
- You are free to change classes whenever by switching to different weapon. (I would never change this. This is what defines an FF MMO.)

Point of keeping some abilities/traits as spec only is to promote uniqueness and move away from this insanely broken system where everyone is everything.

Purpose of specs themselves is to introduce FF classes, which they intend to do, while giving the current classes a purpose - evolving into the FF classes. If they just add new classes - that won't fix anything, just add more things that needs to get balanced. Talent Trees themselves don't have to be used (even though it is), but its nice to have a GUI to play with when allotting points and mouse over description of what skills/abilities/spells/traits do before you spend points on them.

Edit (3/20/11):
Suggestion by Jericho:
Gladiator (Sword/shield, Great sword) -> Dark Knight (Great Sword), Paladin (Sword, shield)
Pugilist (change name?) (H2H, Dagger) -> Monk (Hand to Hand), Thief (Dagger)
Archer (Gun, Bow) -> Ranger (Bow), Corsair (Gun)

- Limit specializations to 2 per Base Class.
- Base Class will eventually learn passive trait that allows use of another Weapon Type. Keeping the Weapon Type specific to the Base Class will allow us to swap specs without having our weapon removed.

Possible Suggestion for Expansion Base/Advanced Classes:
Expansion one:
Tamer (Club, Gemmed-wand or something) -> Beastmaster (Club), Summoner (Wnad or something)

Expansion two:
Ronin (Great Katana, Katana) -> Ninja (Katana), Samurai (Great Katana)

[AlexiaKidd]

I like the idea, I would prefer to just have traditional classes but the complete mish mash of current classes is going to ensure that never happens, so I guess these talent tree's are the best way forward.

[Amsai]

Amazing Suggestion! This is right in line with what I have been thinking about since that interview. And I like it a lot better than unlocking classes as in FFT. If I could rate your post up I would. Its amazing I can agree with you so much on this issue, but we don't see eye-to-eye on the "Guard" mechanic. Anyways, Great Job!

[Terabyt3]

I love this suggestion.

Way I see it would be

Gla: Dark Knight, Paladin, (maybe Thief(Dual Wield daggers))
Pug: Monk DD, Monk Tank (maybe eva tank), Dancer even
Lancer: Tp builder spec with lance, Defence spec with short lance and shield.
Mrd: no idea. maybe viking/warrior. more increase att at loss of def abils
Arc: Sharpshooter (high power single shots), Ranger Varied debuffs and maybe even a companion

Con: Healer, Blm, RDM! (simply allow em to use weapons and en spells!
Thm: Scholar, Death mage

Obviously just some off the cuff ideas but the OP certainly has a point here.

[Shewp]

Great idea! Each class could branch out into two or three specializations (so we can finally get beastmaster/summoner/all the other awesome ff classes)

[MagicofGaia]

Kurokikaze, you are a wonderful person. I didn't think of it this way before. Great ideas. Well thought out, well presented, and it easily fulfills most players 'wants' from this game.

I was a little scared at first when you brought up talent trees. I personally in my own mind replaced it with more of the 'merit point' system from xi to make myself feel better about it, but nevertheless.

Am I understanding by your model though, that 'unlike' ffxi, you need to specifically level one class to 30, and by doing so it unlocks a possibility of 'x' amount of further classes that are restricted to which class you have leveled 'to' rank 30. This of course being opposed to xi's style of level any class to level 30, and then you can unlock any further class in the game via quest?

[Speeral]

Just please no talent trees, it wreaks of almost every other MMO on the market and they are bloody annoying and over done. I know SE has more class then doing a talent tree system.

[Kurokikaze]

Am I understanding by your model though, that 'unlike' ffxi, you need to specifically level one class to 30, and by doing so it unlocks a possibility of 'x' amount of further classes that are restricted to which class you have leveled 'to' rank 30. This of course being opposed to xi's style of level any class to level 30, and then you can unlock any further class in the game via quest?

Yes thats correct. Although you would not be locked into those classes. You still have the freedom to redo your talent points and spend them on a different advanced class for that base class.

Let's say your PUG was specced into a 50 MNK and you decided you wanted to play NIN instead. Assuming you have done the quest for NIN you would simply remove your talent points. When you remove all your points your stats go down to what they would be for 50 base PUG and your MNK specific traits/abilities will be unequipped. You then put those points into NIN and you can then play a 50 NIN.

It sounds weird if you're coming from FFXI only but this is standard fair for anyone thats played another MMO, namely WoW. Don't think of it as playing a different class altogether. You're taking your base class and changing your role. Your role in this case is NIN (tank).

Thanks for the kind comments all