What is happening to healing in pvp?

[Miburo]

In the context of the Achievements, my argument was that it is possible for Healers to get some kills if they're actually contributing more than just HP Restored to the match. Healer who contribute nothing outside HP Restored are never going to get kills, the good Healers who do can occasionally get a couple. That is what I was saying.

Good luck getting 1000 kills as a healer anytime this decade with frontlines as it is now, no matter how good you are. The better you are, the harder it would be. Since good healers wouldn't be actively aiming for kill shots in the first place. It's completely unrealistic, and a dumb thing to even post. You're not getting those achievements as a healer unless party kills count towards it, period.

Actually, you'd be hurting your team trying to get kills in the new game mode, if you think about it. What's better? A healer without access to cleric stance getting a damage boost, or an actual dps on your team? You'd be bad for taking kills from your dps teammates, if anything. You're wrong either way, really. Just stop, little guy.

[Nalien]

Good luck getting 1000 kills as a healer anytime this decade with frontlines as it is now, no matter how good you are.

So what? You're acting like Achievements have to have realistic time frames for completion. They don't.

I was simply saying that a good healer will be able to get kills in Frontlines. They can, they do, and they will. Is this Achievement aimed at them? No, not really. Just like the Commendation Achievements aren't really aimed at anyone who isn't a Tank or Healer, but that doesn't stop DPS from occasionally getting a Commendation.

A healer without access to cleric stance getting a damage boost, or an actual dps on your team? You'd be bad for taking kills from your dps teammates, if anything.

Likewise it would be bad for a Dragoon with Battle Fever to continue getting kills, but that additional 40% damage is almost certainly going to help them get more kills that the rest of the team would benefit more from.

I'm curious though, how close to Cleric Stance potency would Battle Fever actually put a Healer... Just like the Achievements we don't even know how Battle High/Fever will work; Ideally they'd have an Assist system built in so the whole team can get partial credit to counter the above situation.

[Miburo]

So what? You're acting like Achievements have to have realistic time frames for completion. They don't.

I was simply saying that a good healer will be able to get kills in Frontlines. They can, they do, and they will. Is this Achievement aimed at them? No, not really. Just like the Commendation Achievements aren't really aimed at anyone who isn't a Tank or Healer, but that doesn't stop DPS from occasionally getting a Commendation.

Except it's not unrealistic for dps. That's the point. If you did frontlines you'd see that there isn't a shortage of dps. We don't need healers going dps for achievements. But they'll have to do that if they don't want to make it impossible for themselves if it goes by individual kills. That's not a super smart thing to put in the game, is all. I wasn't talking about that though, since we don't know how kills will be counted.

And again, that's not what you said. You said:

Healers who aren't getting kills and contributing a fair amount of damage are bad healers.

Which is wrong. You called people bad who aren't bad. You can be a mega-boss frontline healer and not get any kills. Zero. Because good frontline healers stay alive as long as possible, keep other people alive as long as possible, and sleep and enfeeble people when possible to prevent them from doing damage to you, your teammates, or nodes and to keep them from denying your team kill points by fleeing. Attempting to get kills or do meaningful damage are about as useful as a blm trying to heal his team with psychic. He's got better stuff to do, and so do you. You have no ability to pressure or burst, and your kill shot potential is mostly trying to get the finishing blow on a guy who is already going to be killed by your teammates anyway. What you said was wrong and clearly demonstrated your lack of experience as a frontline player, and you can't weasel out of that by trying to backpedal with me.

[Nalien]

Which is wrong. You called people bad who aren't bad. You can be a mega-boss frontline healer and not get any kills. Zero.

Good Healers contribute more than just HP Restored and can get kills by virtue of that alone. I wasn't saying good Healers always get multiple kills per round, or that they should focus on DPSing, I was simply saying that good healers can get kills period. It's the mindset of "We lost Clerics Stance, we can't attack now" that both confuses me and lead to me making that statement. Healers can do damage and can kill in Frontlines. Losing Clerics Stance did not change that fact, it simply nerfed a Healers ability to do so, it's still more than possible. I am really not arguing that healing or support are less important, I'm simply saying that Healers have opportunities to deal damage in Frontlines and the good ones take those opportunities. If you're not trying to deal damage when healing isn't a priority then I honestly don't know what you're doing after resistances build...

You're really oversimplifying matters as far as I'm concerned. With seven other party members around me am I likely to get a kill? No, not really. I've been in plenty of situations where I wasn't surrounded by my entire party though. Christ, I've been in enough 1v1s... I suppose that's less about being a good <role> and more about just being good enough at Frontlines to not let people ignoring OP be enough to lose you it though. If every single encounter in Frontlines was an 8v8 you'd have a point, I've played enough Frontlines to see plenty of other scenarios play out, though.

As for these Achievements encouraging bad play, did the Drone/Node Achievements encourage A and C to abandon their locations in favour of Mid? The Achievements may also be more reasonable for DPS, but they're still fairly big Achievements. 5,000 enemies slain? Unless that's counted as a group that's going to take a fair amount of time, even for a DPS... Even if SE goofed and they're for individual kills, I really don't see them having the power to make people actively aim to lose... If Achievements had that kind of power everyone would be a Tank for their Warlion. I'm sure a few individuals will deem the Achievements worthy enough to refuse being a Healer instead, but no where near enough to actively have an impact on the majority of matches...

[Miburo]

snip

Again, you didn't say healers can get kills in that quote. You said what I quoted. Healers are bad if they're not getting kills is what you wrote. That isn't the case. Anyone who actually does frontlines and has the ability to recognize skill isn't going to ever say someone isn't a good healer because he never kills anyone. You said that a healer is bad if he doesn't get kills. That's what you wrote! If it isn't want you meant then just say so. All I'm saying is that what you wrote, that I quoted multiple times, is wrong. Because it is. That's it.

And if you're sitting on the outpost as a healer trying to dps a guy down then you're either pretty bad at frontlines or your entire party/alliance is pretty bad, and the guy you're dpsing is really bad if he gets killed by some healer defending the outpost.

And not playing healer because you're rewarded more as a dps isn't "bad play." Bad game design, maybe...

[Nalien]

If it isn't want you meant then just say so.

What I meant, and what I've repeatably been clarifying, is that good Healers can get kills, and that they damn well should be contributing some damage. Did I mean Healers should get a kill or more every match? No. I simply meant that Healers can and will get kills. I find it extremely doubtful that there are any serious PvPers playing Healer who have gone 100 matches without a single kill.

And if you're sitting on the outpost as a healer trying to dps a guy down then you're either pretty bad at frontlines, your entire party/alliance is pretty bad, and the guy you're dpsing is really bad if he gets killed by some healer defending the outpost.

And if that doesn't honestly suggest I actually play Frontlines, I don't know what will. Just because there is an ideal scenario that should play out doesn't mean it always will. Individuals have different skill levels and different groups end up doing different things. There are far more scenarios than the simple 8v8@Flag that can play out in Frontlines. Like I said, I think you're oversimplifying how most matches play out, though perhaps it's just a difference in data center.

And not playing healer because you're rewarded more as a dps isn't "bad play." Bad game design, maybe...

Like I said, I don't think Achievements have enough pull to significantly impact the game. I'm sure they will for some people, but I really doubt the majority of people are going to care that much. Every party I've seen with 8 DPS/Tanks someone or more always ends up switching to Healer, I don't see a set of Achievements changing that just like I don't see people abandoning Markets to farm the Drone Achievement.

[Miburo]

What I meant, and what I've repeatably been clarifying, is that good Healers can get kills, and that they damn well should be contributing some damage. Did I mean Healers should get a kill or more every match? No. I simply meant that Healers can and will get kills. I find it extremely doubtful that there are any serious PvPers playing Healer who have gone 100 matches without a single kill.

My bro, Face Breaker, is a healer main who probably has more frontline wins than most people have matches and he'd guess he hasn't had a single frontline kill that didn't involve pushing dudes off of mid as a healer post-CSnerf (Which I'm fairly certain do not count towards your kills since they die from fall damage). And he's exceptionally good at healer dpsing in other content (And could kill people like crazy before losing cleric stance). He isn't bad, and you can check lodestone frontline standings to see that he's a serious pvper.

But doesn't really matter if you're admitting that what you wrote is completely different than what you meant. "A healer is bad if he doesn't get kills" doesn't in any way translate to "a good healer may occasional get a kill every now and then." Those are two different statements. A really terrible healer can get a kill every now and then too. Contrary to what you wrote, getting kills isn't a criteria for good frontline healing. If you didn't mean what you wrote, that if a healer doesn't get kills he's bad, then fine. Just say that, no need to clarify any more than that because I couldn't care less what you meant. My stance is that what you wrote, that I quoted, is wrong. If you've no objection (because you didn't actually mean what you wrote) then that's the end of it, little guy.

[Parodine]

snip

I've played a lot of frontlines as WHM, like, the majority of the ones I've done, and post CS-nerf, it's unreasonable to expect healers to DPS. Unless the SCH has some down time to spread DoTs around if enemies are focused in on the WHM or you're super outnumbering another group.

Just because we theoretically can kill people doesn't mean we should. Ever. It's simply not the efficient way to go anymore as disappointing as it is. We distract, heal, and sop up damage. Everyone else DPSes.