We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Sleigh]

I'm no SMN expert, but if the overarching goal of balance is to have SMNs run out of MP about the same time DRGs/BRDs/MNKs/NINs run out of TP and have to manage their resources similarly to their TP counterpart, wouldn't the simplest solution be increasing the base PIE modifier on SMNs to be slightly higher? This allows for higher passive MP regeneration as well as a higher MP restoration on Aetherflow.

SMN actually does run out of MP around the same time as TP users naturally run out, in fact SMN can last longer than most of them (around 4m20s if played normally). The problem is, most classes run out around then or sooner, and since SMN is on a different resource pool, it is not going to get help in the same way. The current BRD resource system, where TP song lowers DPS, MP song lowers DPS, and Foe's doesn't lower DPS, and it's all tied in the same MP pool for BRD, means MP isn't worthwhile to just sing for a SMN.

Is there any way to fix Spell Speed so it's more beneficial for SMN? IE, can spell speed increase the speed of a DoT tick and then if it exceed X sec/tick, allows another tick of DoT damage in the normal DoT time frame (similar to how SS for WAR is good if you can get that extra GCD with Berserk up). Things like that would be an interesting train of thought to pursue if it hasn't been pursued yet. (honestly don't know)

Buff SMN's Ruin filler to do more damage and/or somehow either cost no MP or actually recover MP, or let pets at least gain the effects of SS.

80%+ of SMN's damage (Aetherflow stacks tied to 60s CD, DoTs, pet attacks and CDs) is completely unrelated to SS in the current system, meaning you could have 0 SS or 200 SS and it won't actually boost a massive portion. I don't think SS needs to be useful exactly on SMN but in a gear system where it's on most of their pieces, something should change somewhere, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to shift all the itemizations around mid-patch and receive backlash from the BLM community.

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm

Enough that BLM, the least mobile DPS in the game by default (which can be gotten around, but not 100% of the time), beats SMN, the second most mobile DPS, in the most movement heavy turn in the game, T11.

Honestly it's not about how far SMN does below the top, it's how badly it gets obliterated by BLM (who is also explicitly in the AoE, magic damage, caster tools role and typically only one caster is brought to fights to maximize DPS) in a dummy and raid scenario. BLM doesn't need nerfs, SMN just needs to be brought up to speed, or changed in a way that justifies their presence.

It is unfair to a degree for BLM DPS being higher given similar utility and both being mage classes. But BLM damage is effected by RNG, battle mechanics, Foe, movement. Often you need to make special accommodations for BLM so that they can maintain their DPS. (no mechanics. eat extra damage to avoid having to move etc). So in that regard it kind of makes sense that BLM max DPS has a higher potential.

This is definitely true, BLM has to have higher raw output to compete with SMN in mechanics heavy fights, but the gap is simply too wide presently, not counting MP issues (where the true gap starts to show itself). Even 10-20 DPS more consistent DPS in i130 would go a very long way to balancing the two classes.

[Lavieh]

Enough that BLM, the least mobile DPS in the game by default (which can be gotten around, but not 100% of the time), loses to SMN, the second most mobile DPS, in the most movement heavy fight in the game, T11.


.

Sorry this really bothers me.

#1 : SMN's aren't some super mobile firing machine. Actually if you look at it now Mobility scales like this : BRD > NIN > DRG > MNK > SMN > BLM in terms moving while DPSing. NIN/DRG/MNK really have as much freedom as BRD but sometimes moving away from the boss can you make you miss a GCD.

#2 : A good BLM will obliterate any potential output that a SMN can put out in Turn 11, Hands down. Not sure if you worded that wrong or what.

[Sleigh]

Sorry this really bothers me.

#1 : SMN's aren't some super mobile firing machine. Actually if you look at it now Mobility scales like this : BRD > NIN > DRG > MNK > SMN > BLM in terms moving while DPSing. NIN/DRG/MNK really have as much freedom as BRD but sometimes moving away from the boss can you make you miss a GCD.

#2 : A good BLM will obliterate any potential output that a SMN can put out in Turn 11, Hands down. Not sure if you worded that wrong or what.

1. By mobility I mean disengaging the boss, not necessarily just switching positions. If you save Swiftcast and pre-emptively DoT use Miasma/Bio II before forced movement SMN can easily be the 2nd most mobile, even if you have to skip R2, since you can literally have 90% of your DPS working or being on CD while running around. All melee lose not just GCDs but also AAs (25%~ of melee DPS), their potential place in their rotation, and potentially positionals (if talking about just circling the enemy, not disengaging), if they have to do Earthshakers/fountains/towers/whatever.

2. Yeah I meant the other way around, fixed it.

[Lavieh]

Snip of Point 1.

This point is pretty dated, back to 2.0 where disengagement was a big thing. In the current meta DPS can stay engaged with the boss almost 100% of the time. I think Earthshakers is the only exception this. Even back in 2.0 you stay engaged quite a bit but people didn't bother to figure how to. SMN's still have to turret quite a bit to be even comparable in DPS. I don't like the mobile misconception that is being spread :/

[Sequora]

This point is pretty dated, back to 2.0 where disengagement was a big thing. In the current meta DPS can stay engaged with the boss almost 100% of the time. I think Earthshakers is the only exception this. Even back in 2.0 you stay engaged quite a bit but people didn't bother to figure how to. SMN's still have to turret quite a bit to be even comparable in DPS. I don't like the mobile misconception that is being spread :/

Pretty much this. Anyone who says that SMNs have 100% uptime clearly doesn't have a lot of experience.

[Xisin]

Pretty much this. Anyone who says that SMNs have 100% uptime clearly doesn't have a lot of experience.

Nope. I played smn quite a bit when 2.2 was relevant content. I can tell you that dropping a gcd on blm is way more punishing than dropping a gcd on smn. This rings especially true if you are forced to move in ice mode on your thunder cast. (long cast time, and punishing because it fucks up your next chain.) IF any spells is dropped during the 50-70% cast time it hurts that much more, because your dps literally drops to 0 for a whopiing 4+ seconds, minus thunder dot active, and well if it is your thunder cast your dps is 0. Smn never runs into that situation unless they die, and then their dots falls off while dead.

Why summoners have heavy uptime:

Pet is always attacking, letting your pet die is on you not the job balance, especially since it can be moved at any time without dps loss
If one gcd is miss its usually a ruin, you can ruin 2 while moving anyway - not a huge deal, if you are missing the 3 dots again not a big deal it doesn’t screw up your dps for the next 5-6 casts as a result. If you miss 3 gcds in row sure… but why are you missing 3 gcds in a row?
Even if all your dots are down your pet is still attacking
Even while you are dead your dots can still be up
During limit break your dots should be up
Fester, your biggest nuke has no cast time
Energy drain has no cast time
Bane has no cast time
Ruin 2 has no cast time
bio 1 has no cast time
Your swiftcast is a thing to use it on cd you’re not a blm that needs to hold every other swiftcast for flare.
SMN IS the 2nd most mobile dps, and are really good at dealing with mechanics, stop downplaying that.

The two jobs should not do equal dps, BLM needs to be higher dps in order to stay viable when compared to summoner.

[Sequora]

Why summoners have heavy uptime:



SMN IS the 2nd most mobile dps, and are really good at dealing with mechanics, stop downplaying that.

Never said that they have less uptime then BLM. Just that they aren't as mobile as people say. You're pet can still attack even if your dots are up? Most of our damage comes from our DoTs. Our pet is 25-30% of our DPS. It's a huge DPS loss if they fall off for any extended period.