We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Sleigh]

They're already planning to overhaul SMN in 3.0 with the introduction of Levi, Ramuh, and Shiva-egis.

This is probably just a precursor to that.

We really don't want to deal with a completely outclassed DPS for 5~ months if we can help it. Every other class is now reasonably balanced within their role (including DRG now, they did great there), while SMN has extremely obvious issues that should have been fixed in testing for FCoB.

[Judge_Xero]

Haven't got to T13 yet but in all the FCOB turns so far SMN seems to be in a great position.

It might be my pt composition (BRD, MNK, BLM, SMN) playing a part in that too. Bard plays Paeon and Foes.

As long as we aren't overlapping resources then pt DPS is higher VS padding a single class's damage.

[Lavieh]

Haven't got to T13 yet but in all the FCOB turns so far SMN seems to be in a great position.

It might be my pt composition (BRD, MNK, BLM, SMN) playing a part in that too. Bard plays Paeon and Foes.

As long as we aren't overlapping resources then pt DPS is higher VS padding a single class's damage.

Replying with your experience and basing your view on your group isn't a good representation of How SMN lines up in competitive scenarios. You could be playing with an Average MNK and an Average BLM but your SMN could be really good. You just see numbers spread across 3-4 DPS not numbers spread across a whole. If SMN's thought they were in an alright place than SMN's that play in top-tier groups would be posting their parsers and telling me how wrong I am, but that simply isn't the case.

[Sequora]

I think it's funny you pretty much say bard damage should be low due to utility in the main post, but completely ignore all the utility summoner brings. With goad from nin I would argue smn brings better support than bard in a lot of situations. That said, I'm of the school of thought that all dps classes should bring somewhat similar dps, with some doing better than others depending on player skill/the current fight.

I think it's funny that you're saying that you think that SMN brings an insane amount of utility and then mention NIN in the same sentence. In the current game even after the nerf are fighting for a second place DPS not too far from MNK DPS. NIN brings a lot of utility to the table as well. They have a stun, silence, TP regeneration for a party member, +10% damage on an enemy debuff, slashing debuff, and have a weak mantra.

[Taban]

I think it's funny that you're saying that you think that SMN brings an insane amount of utility and then mention NIN in the same sentence. In the current game even after the nerf are fighting for a second place DPS not too far from MNK DPS. NIN brings a lot of utility to the table as well. They have a stun, silence, TP regeneration for a party member, +10% damage on an enemy debuff, slashing debuff, and have a weak mantra.

I simply pointed out that if you're ok with bards dps being low, you should also be ok with smn's being low since they bring a similar amount of utility. I guess we could call for nin nerfs as well if you think higher utility should = lower damage. Like I said in my post, I think the devs should aim to have all the classes bring similar amounts of dps and unique utility instead of having some just naturally weaker than others.

[SummonerSenah]

Since they share gear, I can play blm if I need to. But I don't want to have to. I mean if I wanted to be a BLM I would have mained that. I do hope SE takes a look at summoner.

[Sequora]

Like I said in my post, I think the devs should aim to have all the classes bring similar amounts of dps and unique utility instead of having some just naturally weaker than others.

I agree but where do they draw the line? I think BRD has been treated differently because their songs provide very powerful raidwide buffs. A BRD plays ballad and restores MP for both of the healers and possibly the SMN if there is one. Paeon is a very powerful raid utility ability. Most DPS classes absolutely depend on this to keep their maximum DPS rotations up. This has been lessened with the introduction of NIN, but after the minor NIN nerfs will be increased again. SMN has a few very powerful utility abilities but so do a lot of other classes. Having resurrection on a non-healer class is a nice utility spell, but once a group knows the fight well enough it's usually not necessary. I don't personally know any groups who don't have a BRD in their party.

[Judge_Xero]

Replying with your experience and basing your view on your group isn't a good representation of How SMN lines up in competitive scenarios.

From a design perspective of how FCOB is laid out, it seems to be much different than the previous Coils. In the previous coils you could essentially just zerg any mob as long as you were following the mechanics and win. FCOB seems to be tuned much harsher in that you need to split your resources between team members to be most efficient. (until better geared)

FCOB Spoilers

T10 - Split damage on adds - good potential for smn/blm aoe while melee finishes off individual adds. a couple mechanics that could disrupt drg, mnk, blm, brd damage, but smn is mostly unaffected. mnk, blm, drg, nin have a higher potential output, but can do a lot less do to rng/mechanics, vs SMN consistency.

T11 - Add phase is a good example of splitting resources. Multi-Dot + Ifrit on Sphere to help push with melee. Good time to refill MP with Energy Drain while balancing Cube/Sphere. Ifrit helps soak Repelling Cannon for healers, so they can dps, increasing party dps.

T12 - Bennus are on a 60s timer which allows SMN to Contagion/Bane every spawn (saving MP). SMN is a great choice for doing Red/Blue fire as they are able to still do damage with existing dots. This free's up other dd's and healers.

Because of my party composition, BLM and Monk can stay on Phoenix to get their full rotations in. BLM does Flare on Black Fires. SMN and Bard (Internal Release @ 60s + WB/VB only) focus on the Bennus (+Garuda with Rouse @60s) this allows for very low initial enmity for the tank to pull to position and is enough damage to kill the bennus in 15s. This is a dps increase for SMN/Bard while allowing Monk/BLM to stay on the boss maintaining their dps. It also saves MP for SMN.

You could have the BLM Flare/dps the bennus as well when they spawn if they can time it well. This would be an increase to BLM damage, but a loss in party dps and a waste of resources.

Phase 3 on is just a controlled burn of each bennu + placement. SMN, BRD, and Monk take care of the big bennus so BLM can do it's thing and wear the bennu's down. This allows the greatest dot up time for bard/smn to increase overall party dps.

T13 - Haven't had the opportunity to experience yet.

Better stat itemization on gear, rear acc for pet, and a potency increase for Ruin, Ruin II, and Miasma II would be welcomed, just to bring single target dps up a bit more. (Ruin/Ruin II 90 Potency, Miasma II dot potency 15)

[Xisin]

Miasma's actually better than Blizzard because it stacks different while there are other forms of heavy that all stack. Sadly, SCH can and will use it if necessary.

In 2.2 I agreed with your reasoning that SMN's E4E + better Virus + raise + pet for stack mechanics were more useful (although there was no Apocatastasis back then as it is now) - in fact in 2.2 I fought for BLM needing more DPS than SMN on the reasoning that SMN had better utility. The tables have turned, IMO. Apocatastasis + Manaward/wall (more so than just shielding, you can bypass mechanics, ensuring survival and giving your healers room to focus elsewhere like in T12 final phase and T13) are more useful in both farm and progression T1-13 than anything SMN has right now, especially with how Antibody works with Virus (SCH Super-Virus + WHM Virus + BLM Virus is 99% of the time the same as having 3 Super-Viruses, with the rare exception). The only realistic CC casters can use thus far in Coil have been limited to Miasma and Blizzard being good against some adds mostly. I'd like to see some Sleep-able adds and some enemies who get affected more deeply by the things you mentioned, by both BLM and SMN, but it's seemingly against their design process.

I'd say it's mostly a better E4E and a battle res (which is usually not a priority for SMN to actually do, and often if it is, it's a wipe) in reality as the utility portion of SMN, at least so far in the game. For some reason they took away pet stacking in FC as a thing at all, an area they could have added for some survivability in T10. To me it's even more of a kick in the balls that BLM provides more SMN in raid survival when there are so many issues otherwise.

manaward/wall dont actually outright bypass mechanics this coil, you still have to deal with them, it prevents some damage but not all of it. I.E:
bennu pinions in t12 you still have to make sure you aren't clocking someone with a bennu and thus have to move
double dives in t12 still knock you back (although riding twintania can be fun.)
manawalling earth shaker still produces the lava pools - cover removes them from melees
manaward in itself usually isnt strong enough to provide complete damage prevention but it does help but it's not a 100% up kind of thing
manaward is good for t10 if you healer screws the pooch on red marks
I can't think of anything off hand for t11 other than standard self damage reduction blm has always had - it's dumb to take hydra breath damage don't bring that up

SMN should be using eye for an eye as often as possible, as a blm I do that, summoners really have no excuse not to use it, its REALLY good. flat damage reduction is amazing
STR Virus is dumb in final coil and blm virus is delegated to adds usually - not entirely a bad thing but smn virus is way better.
SMN up time is a big big thing, and if equalized in potency to blm smn will bankrupt blm AGAIN
your raise is a thing, sorry to say this but it was thrown at me in arguments too many times in 2.2 to ignore this argument now. SMN was taken over blm over this in several raid leaders minds

Should smn get more utility? sure why not I agree - it gives smn more purpose in the caster slot
Should smn run out of mp? nope I think that should be a caster thing since having a large resource to pull from is an nice advantage over physical dps. Keep in mind blm mp isnt infinite - blm is still constrained by mp just in a different sense, ice mode dps is balls, and it can come at really bad times occasionally, particularly in progression. thats to balance how high fire mode dps is though.
SMN should not be doing on par damage to BLM, it creates a situation where blm is simply not used. If you want buffs they should not be in the form of potency changes to override blm, that isn't balanced, it's just trading one caster for another.
I'd like to see smn have more utility, less mp problems and no damage drop off compared to blm. BLM should do more damage, have larger bursts but due to ice mode cannot provide super on demand burst without losing a decent amount of dps to do so.

last minute edit - summoners do more damage during limit breaking than a blm (this is a big thing) simply due to 1 dot vs 3-5 dots
Not directed at Sleigh but more general to others - stop comparing casters to melee - different slots and balance wise it seems SE wants melee to do more damage. NINs and SMN isn't comparable two different roles except damage.

[Taban]

I agree but where do they draw the line? I think BRD has been treated differently because their songs provide very powerful raidwide buffs. A BRD plays ballad and restores MP for both of the healers and possibly the SMN if there is one. Paeon is a very powerful raid utility ability. Most DPS classes absolutely depend on this to keep their maximum DPS rotations up. This has been lessened with the introduction of NIN, but after the minor NIN nerfs will be increased again. SMN has a few very powerful utility abilities but so do a lot of other classes. Having resurrection on a non-healer class is a nice utility spell, but once a group knows the fight well enough it's usually not necessary. I don't personally know any groups who don't have a BRD in their party.

I don't really disagree, and I can see the rationale, though a free combat res is always useful, especially for those times when healers are already taxed trying to keep people up, and ninja's damage buff is raidwide as well =p. I don't want it to come across as if I'm against summoner getting buffed, I just don't want any class to turn into what dragoon was in ffxi.