We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Rgaze]

The only real issues here are mp management and spell speed. Summoners are not inherently weak (SE removed thunder for a reason), because we can stay mobile and keep almost 100% uptime on the boss, as well as dot up multiple enemies all over the map. Even in fights like t8 mnk is the only job that truly "crushes" us as OP states. Playing in many statics with skilled players I found myself on par with all other jobs in t8. Even in fcob if the bard has to throw out mana song for a healer I can see the improvement in my dps and easily keep it up to par with other jobs. It's just compared to blm with it's infinite resources, or the multiple jobs that use TP and therefore need a bard's paeon, mana is a very real issue in fcob and can take it's toll. Avoiding ruin II helps some but the lack of mana greatly increases the skill floor required to be on par with other jobs.

So please SE, let us have more base mana to allow us to continue milking the job for what it's truly worth.

[Sleigh]

BLM vs SMN

I agree with much of what you say (though I really think you're not giving enough credit to Manawall and Manaward, especially in your T13 example - it's godly to singlehandedly negate a final phase Earthshaker set by popping Manawall after the first hit and then Manaward and let your healer do whatever - free set of DoTs on the boss!!!) but I think you're glossing over what happens in FCoB realistically (perhaps your points are targeted more for future content, though with the level increase it will all be moot to consider current tools). Having STR Virus just means SCH Viruses the boss when it's time, that's more or less all there is to it and literally the only difference in having SMN's Supervirus is SMN can apply it himself because the SCH is lazy, and a slightly higher upkeep of E4E isn't enough to change much of anything. Beyond that, BLM mitigation trumps anything SMN can do currently, because it can mean survival of both you and others, or at least give more healer DPS, especially when things get put on farm (but in progression Apoc was amazing during mess-ups, preventing death and clearing > rezing dead person IMO). Even in progression, if someone died, a healer picked him up, and if there were so many deaths that neither healer had Swiftcast and someone was still dead, it was a wipe.

Honestly, if I had to choose to have BLM tools or SMN tools (not related to how they attack, just their tools), I'd choose BLM tools as of current content.

What I'd like their difference to be, DPS wise, and this is assuming resources aren't an issue, BLM would be 90%-110% depending on mechanics and procs/crits, where 90% is an average run and getting caught in mechanics, and 100% is a good run + mechanics or an average run + no mechanics, 110% is a great run. SMN should be a solid 95-105%, 95 being mechanics + normal run, 100 either mechanics and good crit Festers or no mechanics and a normal run, and 105% being no mechanics + good crit %, tuned very close to what the average BLM damage will be. I do think they should average out near the same damage if you repeat a fight multiple times. Give SMN a resource fix and the equivalent of 20 extra ST DPS (i126 SMN with i135 book, I've tested this ... a lot ... and the results would make you cry ... crafted i110 BLM can do about the same DPS on average) and they're in a spot where SMN or BLM could come to raid and no one would groan either way.

The only real issues here are mp management and spell speed. Summoners are not inherently weak (SE removed thunder for a reason), because we can stay mobile and keep almost 100% uptime on the boss, as well as dot up multiple enemies all over the map. Even in fights like t8 mnk is the only job that truly "crushes" us as OP states.

Even assuming full resources, SMN would lose to everyone but BRD and pre-2.45 DRG in T8. With resources it was BRD level, and that's assuming a BRD who sings Paeon's a portion of it.

[Xisin]

you are right that I'm more considerate of future content and job identity than current content. Because to me that's more what matters rather than a band-aid fix. I am against changes that would shelve either of the casters and would like to see a distinct (and appealing) choice between the two. I'd would like to see SE make blm "the pure dps" as quoted by yoshi-p the more damage oriented caster, and summoner the more reliable and utility based caster. A comparison would be more akin to wizard vs magician in EQ.

[Rgaze]

Even assuming full resources, SMN would lose to everyone but BRD and pre-2.45 DRG in T8. With resources it was BRD level, and that's assuming a BRD who sings Paeon's a portion of it.

Well.......that leaves mnk and blm if we're talking pre 2.4. Blm is more RNG based but on average I always found myself doing extremely similar dps as the many skilled blm I played with. So it was really just mnk that won out. I'm sorry but I don't see the weakness, other than the mana struggle. Also nin would beat us when it was new but they already nerfed the class and I think it's way too early to have any concrete info on where DRG and nin stand compared to smn since 2.45 dropped yesterday.

[Sleigh]

Well.......that leaves mnk and blm if we're talking pre 2.4. Blm is more RNG based but on average I always found myself doing extremely similar dps as the many skilled blm I played with. So it was really just mnk that won out. I'm sorry but I don't see the weakness, other than the mana struggle. Also nin would beat us when it was new but they already nerfed the class and I think it's way too early to have any concrete info on where DRG and nin stand compared to smn since 2.45 dropped yesterday.

The difference is pre-2.45 DRG would be LB3ing and bringing a DPS boost to BRD while still being competitive with SMN numbers, so the contribution is way higher. SMN brings nothing but less DPS in a fight like T8, and is just the worst class to bring on T8 (and T10-13).

[Minorinz]

manaward/wall dont actually outright bypass mechanics this coil, you still have to deal with them, it prevents some damage but not all of it. I.E:
bennu pinions in t12 you still have to make sure you aren't clocking someone with a bennu and thus have to move
double dives in t12 still knock you back (although riding twintania can be fun.)
manawalling earth shaker still produces the lava pools - cover removes them from melees
manaward in itself usually isnt strong enough to provide complete damage prevention but it does help but it's not a 100% up kind of thing
manaward is good for t10 if you healer screws the pooch on red marks
I can't think of anything off hand for t11 other than standard self damage reduction blm has always had - it's dumb to take hydra breath damage don't bring that up

SMN should be using eye for an eye as often as possible, as a blm I do that, summoners really have no excuse not to use it, its REALLY good. flat damage reduction is amazing
STR Virus is dumb in final coil and blm virus is delegated to adds usually - not entirely a bad thing but smn virus is way better.
SMN up time is a big big thing, and if equalized in potency to blm smn will bankrupt blm AGAIN
your raise is a thing, sorry to say this but it was thrown at me in arguments too many times in 2.2 to ignore this argument now. SMN was taken over blm over this in several raid leaders minds

Should smn get more utility? sure why not I agree - it gives smn more purpose in the caster slot
Should smn run out of mp? nope I think that should be a caster thing since having a large resource to pull from is an nice advantage over physical dps. Keep in mind blm mp isnt infinite - blm is still constrained by mp just in a different sense, ice mode dps is balls, and it can come at really bad times occasionally, particularly in progression. thats to balance how high fire mode dps is though.
SMN should not be doing on par damage to BLM, it creates a situation where blm is simply not used. If you want buffs they should not be in the form of potency changes to override blm, that isn't balanced, it's just trading one caster for another.
I'd like to see smn have more utility, less mp problems and no damage drop off compared to blm. BLM should do more damage, have larger bursts but due to ice mode cannot provide super on demand burst without losing a decent amount of dps to do so.

last minute edit - summoners do more damage during limit breaking than a blm (this is a big thing) simply due to 1 dot vs 3-5 dots
Not directed at Sleigh but more general to others - stop comparing casters to melee - different slots and balance wise it seems SE wants melee to do more damage. NINs and SMN isn't comparable two different roles except damage.

Manawall/ward don't bypass mechanics but they are good enough for you to stay assured, eat damage for less movement. First of all, manaward is a godsend on most of FCoB, same with manawall. If you know how to truly play BLM to the fullest you would know BLM is quite over the top compared to SMN on single target and AOE especially on fights with predictable movement patterns which helps sustain a BLMs damage. Also, you need to understand that in those fights there is no downtime hence mana issues and dots don't tick on bahamut during adds/divebombs phase, imdugud during adds, Kaliya during adds (can't even bane), phoenix on adds phase and during ifrit plumes. Not to mention that the other dps in the party is killing the adds too fast I don't even bother dot'ing the adds up to save my mana. It's a waste if they don't tick for their full potency anyway, it's better to spam ruin. E4E is great except it actually needs to proc first, virus is awesome except you only need 1 person to put it up with a 30 seconds window after antibody wears off. SMN has a crazy burst, even one that can exceed a BLM's on a single target with no RNG involved ofc with all CDs up for SMN, however BLM will always beat SMN on stacked targets and will be the specialized AOE class due to the limitations they have on SMN, but then again what about SMN? no useful utility, no AOE burst damage it's just slower/longer damage over time, and no infinite pool of resources which forces a lot of people to even use garuda. I'll be honest as well and say a great player will deal with all of these issues if they have an awesome raid party to compensate with, for example, spread the damage between adds and split it up for the BRD and SMN dots to tick and proc. Even with all those downgrades, SMN is not that far behind and I don't think it needs potency buffs, simply better mana refreshing rate and better usage of utility. BTW I never switched to BLM because of dps lack, I don't ever have to but as you can see so many people did and SMN is not much balanced even on average for different players.

[Chiramu]

Lowering the MP cost of Ruin would solve half the SMN's problems in a stroke.

Lowering the MP cost of Ruin II would be better.

[Sunako]

I dont think mana is the main problem for SMN. There must be the reason why we have that energy drain skill in our ability list. It is part of our gameplay control mana and avoid using it too much like BLM should try avoid moving instead and bypass mechanics with their mana wall/ward/aetherial manipulation.

[Sleigh]

I dont think mana is the main problem for SMN. There must be the reason why we have that energy drain skill in our ability list. It is part of our gameplay control mana and avoid using it too much like BLM should try avoid moving instead and bypass mechanics with their mana wall/ward/aetherial manipulation.

Oh SMN can certainly stay afloat on MP if they so choose. The problem is, 150 potency lost per Energy Drain is a big deal. Using MP pots over X-Pots of INT, a very big deal since SMN gains more out of pots than anyone. Getting Mage's Ballad when it's normally not needed, taking away Foe's or at the least just lowering BRD DPS because you brought a SMN, is a big deal. If SMN maintains his MP the raid DPS suffers for it, either SMN's own DPS or BRD's. You can instead bring a BLM who will do more than SMN regardless of if SMN has infinite MP or not with no compensation, and then you can play Foe's for said BLM and make the gap even higher.

[Dagny]

The only real thing I want as a SMN is a larger MP pool or better MP regen...everything else (reduced ruin costs, making spell speed useful, reducing pet's accuracy) would be extra perks.

It's been frustrating since I've started maining SMN (around 2.1) to see other classes slowly get buffed in various ways and for us to get nothing. I've read it on forums to be a definite power creep, and I'd have to agree.