We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Sunako]

I dont think mana is the main problem for SMN. There must be the reason why we have that energy drain skill in our ability list. It is part of our gameplay control mana and avoid using it too much like BLM should try avoid moving instead and bypass mechanics with their mana wall/ward/aetherial manipulation.

[Sleigh]

I dont think mana is the main problem for SMN. There must be the reason why we have that energy drain skill in our ability list. It is part of our gameplay control mana and avoid using it too much like BLM should try avoid moving instead and bypass mechanics with their mana wall/ward/aetherial manipulation.

Oh SMN can certainly stay afloat on MP if they so choose. The problem is, 150 potency lost per Energy Drain is a big deal. Using MP pots over X-Pots of INT, a very big deal since SMN gains more out of pots than anyone. Getting Mage's Ballad when it's normally not needed, taking away Foe's or at the least just lowering BRD DPS because you brought a SMN, is a big deal. If SMN maintains his MP the raid DPS suffers for it, either SMN's own DPS or BRD's. You can instead bring a BLM who will do more than SMN regardless of if SMN has infinite MP or not with no compensation, and then you can play Foe's for said BLM and make the gap even higher.

[Sunako]

...

You dont get my point. I mean maybe energy drain is supposed 2 lower our dps. Maybe we are not supposed 2 fester all of the time. Like tp classes that eventually run out from the tp if they do their max potential damage rotation without caring tp. TP classes can use the rotation that cost less tp but that reduce their dps like energy drain as summoner. BLM idea is doing good sustained dps whole 10min fight and other dps classes should do little better dps in the first 3 min than BLM, until the end they will be in the same numbers as blm or bit lower(if the bard do not sing tp/mana).

[Atomnium]

Oh SMN can certainly stay afloat on MP if they so choose. The problem is, 150 potency lost per Energy Drain is a big deal. Using MP pots over X-Pots of INT, a very big deal since SMN gains more out of pots than anyone. Getting Mage's Ballad when it's normally not needed, taking away Foe's or at the least just lowering BRD DPS because you brought a SMN, is a big deal. If SMN maintains his MP the raid DPS suffers for it, either SMN's own DPS or BRD's. You can instead bring a BLM who will do more than SMN regardless of if SMN has infinite MP or not with no compensation, and then you can play Foe's for said BLM and make the gap even higher.

^This is so true.

As a smn you could totally keep your mp pool lasting forever by over-using Energy Drain but the 150 potency lost for not using Fester is an incredible dps waste :x
For new statics wanting to progress quickly into fcob, the choice would be very obvious to make of what to take over blm and smn applicants, they would take a blm for faster progression :/ for the simple reason that the newly smn recruit have an additional con over a blm, the smn will have to perfectly learn a specific mp management pattern for each turns and so meaning more training.

Here is 2 exemples of what a smn mp pool look like when entering into turn13 adds phase (between 500 to 800 mps, the brd will have to do a quick ballad during divebombs to raise them at around 1500~ mps), it's kind of low considering the amount of adds to kill :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfxKbdZSXZw#t=334
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JBmLNLxtM#t=422

[Judge_Xero]

I dont think mana is the main problem for SMN. There must be the reason why we have that energy drain skill in our ability list. It is part of our gameplay control mana and avoid using it too much like BLM should try avoid moving instead and bypass mechanics with their mana wall/ward/aetherial manipulation.

It's not really a huge deal to use Energy Drain over Fester in long fights. Even if you did 1 Energy Drain every Aetherflow it would only cost you about 10 DPS (@i110 - estimated 13 DPS at i130). That can sustain you for a 10 minute fight with 0 downtime doing your full optimal rotation (2066 MP recovery per minute)

The argument seems to be...."well I shouldn't have to lower my DPS in longer fights, by having to use Energy Drain over Fester", since SMN is only around 30 DPS less than a lucky BLM. (lots of procs, not chosen by mechanics etc).

I still don't think because SMN isn't owing in FCOB that it requires a complete rework. It just happens to greatly excel at certain types of fights - downtime - non AOE mobs - many interrupting mechanics.

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm?

Here is 2 exemples of what a smn mp pool look like when entering into turn13 adds phase (between 500 to 800 mps, the brd will have to do a quick ballad during divebombs to raise them at around 1500~ mps), it's kind of low considering the amount of adds to kill :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfxKbdZSXZw#t=334
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JBmLNLxtM#t=422

Not too bad since their Aetherflow just came up. That was the majority of MP gain. The other vid it looks like they Raised the WHM.
There is an opportunity where they can use Energy Drain due to dotting so many mobs. Yes 150 Potency is less than 300 Potency, but considering the amount of damage going out on those mobs by the SMN, if 150 potency is going to wipe the party then....

[Lavieh]

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm?
.

Going off of Turn 10-T11- They have roughly 30-40 less DPS Potential

Turn 12 - 15 ~ less dps potential, depending on the strategy. I for one don't think bennu's shouldn't be mass aoe'd. Mage lB is enough > Single target the rest. But for the groups that have SMN's Baning dots then that raises their potential quite a bit

Turn 13 - ~20 less dps potential than blm, about equal potential as other classes depending on how the add phase is handled. BLM will still out DPS them throughout the whole fight + the add phase.

On a test dummy - 30-40 less dps potential than any other class, sans BRD.

This is of course not considering MP Problems.

At i115 with i110 gear one fester is roughly 8.3 DPS less so their potential goes down even further every time the are forced to use ED.

As most people have said fixing their MP problem would go a long way, Itemization would go a long way as well. A few minor dps tweaks would also level them out. I don't think anyone is asking for an overhaul or an over buff.

[Sleigh]

I'm no SMN expert, but if the overarching goal of balance is to have SMNs run out of MP about the same time DRGs/BRDs/MNKs/NINs run out of TP and have to manage their resources similarly to their TP counterpart, wouldn't the simplest solution be increasing the base PIE modifier on SMNs to be slightly higher? This allows for higher passive MP regeneration as well as a higher MP restoration on Aetherflow.

SMN actually does run out of MP around the same time as TP users naturally run out, in fact SMN can last longer than most of them (around 4m20s if played normally). The problem is, most classes run out around then or sooner, and since SMN is on a different resource pool, it is not going to get help in the same way. The current BRD resource system, where TP song lowers DPS, MP song lowers DPS, and Foe's doesn't lower DPS, and it's all tied in the same MP pool for BRD, means MP isn't worthwhile to just sing for a SMN.

Is there any way to fix Spell Speed so it's more beneficial for SMN? IE, can spell speed increase the speed of a DoT tick and then if it exceed X sec/tick, allows another tick of DoT damage in the normal DoT time frame (similar to how SS for WAR is good if you can get that extra GCD with Berserk up). Things like that would be an interesting train of thought to pursue if it hasn't been pursued yet. (honestly don't know)

Buff SMN's Ruin filler to do more damage and/or somehow either cost no MP or actually recover MP, or let pets at least gain the effects of SS.

80%+ of SMN's damage (Aetherflow stacks tied to 60s CD, DoTs, pet attacks and CDs) is completely unrelated to SS in the current system, meaning you could have 0 SS or 200 SS and it won't actually boost a massive portion. I don't think SS needs to be useful exactly on SMN but in a gear system where it's on most of their pieces, something should change somewhere, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to shift all the itemizations around mid-patch and receive backlash from the BLM community.

How far below top DPS do people think SMN stands atm

Enough that BLM, the least mobile DPS in the game by default (which can be gotten around, but not 100% of the time), beats SMN, the second most mobile DPS, in the most movement heavy turn in the game, T11.

Honestly it's not about how far SMN does below the top, it's how badly it gets obliterated by BLM (who is also explicitly in the AoE, magic damage, caster tools role and typically only one caster is brought to fights to maximize DPS) in a dummy and raid scenario. BLM doesn't need nerfs, SMN just needs to be brought up to speed, or changed in a way that justifies their presence.

It is unfair to a degree for BLM DPS being higher given similar utility and both being mage classes. But BLM damage is effected by RNG, battle mechanics, Foe, movement. Often you need to make special accommodations for BLM so that they can maintain their DPS. (no mechanics. eat extra damage to avoid having to move etc). So in that regard it kind of makes sense that BLM max DPS has a higher potential.

This is definitely true, BLM has to have higher raw output to compete with SMN in mechanics heavy fights, but the gap is simply too wide presently, not counting MP issues (where the true gap starts to show itself). Even 10-20 DPS more consistent DPS in i130 would go a very long way to balancing the two classes.

[Lavieh]

Enough that BLM, the least mobile DPS in the game by default (which can be gotten around, but not 100% of the time), loses to SMN, the second most mobile DPS, in the most movement heavy fight in the game, T11.


.

Sorry this really bothers me.

#1 : SMN's aren't some super mobile firing machine. Actually if you look at it now Mobility scales like this : BRD > NIN > DRG > MNK > SMN > BLM in terms moving while DPSing. NIN/DRG/MNK really have as much freedom as BRD but sometimes moving away from the boss can you make you miss a GCD.

#2 : A good BLM will obliterate any potential output that a SMN can put out in Turn 11, Hands down. Not sure if you worded that wrong or what.

[Sleigh]

Sorry this really bothers me.

#1 : SMN's aren't some super mobile firing machine. Actually if you look at it now Mobility scales like this : BRD > NIN > DRG > MNK > SMN > BLM in terms moving while DPSing. NIN/DRG/MNK really have as much freedom as BRD but sometimes moving away from the boss can you make you miss a GCD.

#2 : A good BLM will obliterate any potential output that a SMN can put out in Turn 11, Hands down. Not sure if you worded that wrong or what.

1. By mobility I mean disengaging the boss, not necessarily just switching positions. If you save Swiftcast and pre-emptively DoT use Miasma/Bio II before forced movement SMN can easily be the 2nd most mobile, even if you have to skip R2, since you can literally have 90% of your DPS working or being on CD while running around. All melee lose not just GCDs but also AAs (25%~ of melee DPS), their potential place in their rotation, and potentially positionals (if talking about just circling the enemy, not disengaging), if they have to do Earthshakers/fountains/towers/whatever.

2. Yeah I meant the other way around, fixed it.

[Lavieh]

Snip of Point 1.

This point is pretty dated, back to 2.0 where disengagement was a big thing. In the current meta DPS can stay engaged with the boss almost 100% of the time. I think Earthshakers is the only exception this. Even back in 2.0 you stay engaged quite a bit but people didn't bother to figure how to. SMN's still have to turret quite a bit to be even comparable in DPS. I don't like the mobile misconception that is being spread :/