Let Players Speed Run Again

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

BobbinT, please go back and read several of my posts. I suggest starting with the first (the literal first response to the original post), and you'll see I'm not only following what he's saying, I am, and have provided well-thought out counter-argument, and actually at points have even agreed with him. I was actually in favor of the randomized puzzle actually, but was being snarky in pointing out that it was not a mechanic that would lend well to speed runs. (And I understand he was basically saying if he HAS to be stopped due to mechanics, at least make them interesting i.e. randomized elements.)

I believe I also pointed out that Brayflox HM was originally so able to be speed run not only due to lack of any significant mechanics (a key holding enemy/gate x3, and one area you just had to wait for Brayflox to open a path, but not much else) but because it was tuned for i55 and many players were pushing into i100 at that point. We were all WELL above the bar. Simply put, it got too easy (for example, I Bard-tanked Bray/Halatali HM, and Lost City back when they were still "expert" dungeons). I believe the devs took note of that and began to raise the bar. I believe I ALSO mentioned that the current Expert level dungeons are tuned for i80, which is actually higher than Turn 4 (i75) but lower than Turn 5 (i83 minimum, lol), and while Coil is not designed to be lengthy (which is why Jinraya-Geki and I both like it), it IS designed to be a challenge. As such, the "old method" simply doesn't lend itself all that well or effectively to the challenge. Perhaps at i130, but we'll see.

Also, Coil - my favorite content in the game (previously mentioned as well) - is/was my crucible. I cut my teeth and pushed myself to learn how to REALLY play my roles effectively there; far more so than any speed run that involved gathering up enemies and using aoes/aoe heals til everything is dead (T4 obviously being an exception). And I mentioned in a different thread how I've been able to clear a lot of content generally lower geared than anyone else, purely due to really knowing what to do and how to do it effectively, Coil included. Even now, I continue learning to do what I can better and faster, and without even needing the "old" speed run method (T2 being an exception). I do enjoy the game at my leisure - I cap when I want to, and I don't cap when I don't want to - and that's whether I rush or not. I said before, we all get the same tomes whether fast or slow. Let me also just put it out there now - the persistent idea that anything less than a speed run = "slow and easy" is faulty and really needs to not hold weight here. Others have supported that small point there, and I regret not being able to give specific credit for that.

Lastly, if you're seeing what I'm seeing, you're looking at my Ninja - my new tertiary (that's third) main class. Geared enough to do most of what I need/want to do, naturally, but still third in my priority list of classes to gear. Please don't judge what I can or can't do by looking at my gear.

[SpookyGhost]

If you are going to force me to stop make it interesting, that is the alternative I suggested.

This is another problem I have with the new dungeons. Prime example being Sastasha HM where there is literally a stopping point that requires you kill 2 whole enemies before progressing onward. Why is that there? For what purpose? We haven't had to do that since... early low level dungeons, and even then you could pull multiple packs of them at a time if you wanted to.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This is another problem I have with the new dungeons. Prime example being Sastasha HM where there is literally a stopping point that requires you kill 2 whole enemies before progressing onward. Why is that there? For what purpose? We haven't had to do that since... early low level dungeons, and even then you could pull multiple packs of them at a time if you wanted to.

I think you might be blowing that well out of proportion. Especially when you consider that's ALL there is between the first boss and second, minus 2 sets of 3 trash mob pulls. A good party can shred right through them with minimal time lost, so it's really a bit of a moot point.

[Zedd702]

*EATS POPCORN*

This thread is lol, nothing against the OP. I understand the post, but tbqh, the fall in Qarn is mere seconds of recovery, nothing that really handicaps a speedrun, the enemies in sasatasha that you are forced to kill before the gate open is only seconds. While I agree with needing more interesting mechanics, like someone suggested puzzle, security codes, etc (which is a really good idea imo). But people really need to stop "saying" they cant speed run them. Put together an effective team via FC/PF whatever and do the damn thing. the groups I had yesterday shredded through Brayflox HM, Sastasha HM, Qarn HM and Tam Tara HM, before I even knew it was over. I Played all roles Tank and SCH/WHM the most and then I used SMN on Brayflox.

of all of them Sastasha was the fastest one completed. I was SCH and we had a WAR, BRD and BLM, the Kraken died faster than I had ever seen.

[SpookyGhost]

I think you might be blowing that well out of proportion. Especially when you consider that's ALL there is between the first boss and second, minus 2 sets of 3 trash mob pulls. A good party can shred right through them with minimal time lost, so it's really a bit of a moot point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwm5CzqTJ_Q#t=1406

It's literally 2 trash mobs blocking the path. Why is the door there? Because they want us to clear 2 trash mobs, with 0 mechanics, and then proceed on to the next room (the next room is fine, bare in mind). Why...? Why is this a thing? It takes very little time to burn down 2 mobs, but what is the point in that stop gap? It's only purpose is to make sure you clear those 2 trash mobs before you proceed onto the next ones, which is what this entire thread is all about: the unnecessary walls. I feel like this one is THE most unnecessary because, again, it's 2 mobs that do absolutely nothing. At least the walls in Qarn have a monster that is supposed to have a "mechanic" blocking the way, Snowcloak you either deal with waves of trash/one trash mob with "mechanics" and you can pull large before you get to the wall there. That's not ideal, but it is significantly better than a wall where you fight 2 mobs that have absolutely 0 mechanics.

You could also try reading the post I was quoting, the one that recommends making the walls interesting if they're going to be there at all. Since that was sort of what I was expanding on, using an example of a room with absolutely 0 mechanics, just (again) 2 trash mobs that do nothing but die.

[Zedd702]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwm5CzqTJ_Q#t=1406

It's literally 2 trash mobs blocking the path. Why is the door there?

You could also try reading the post I was quoting, the one that recommends making the walls interesting if they're going to be there at all. Since that was sort of what I was expanding on, using an example of a room with absolutely 0 mechanics, just (again) 2 trash mobs that do nothing but die.

Same could be said about the original Sastasha at this same point, not once but twice is blocked by a (I don't want to call him a boss, but w/e) and the two trash adds. I look at them as Guards. You don't walk through a secured checkpoint without guards, do you? That's pretty much what those guys are. In order to pass that spot, you have to get pass the guards to proceed, otherwise turn back and leave the dungeon...

Would it make you feel better if they dropped a key?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Let me get this straight: you're complaining about 2 mobs in the way. 2 mobs, really? You complain they "do nothing but die" but you seem to be missing the trees for the forest here. Let's break it down: You've got an enemy that is actively healed by non-aggressive "adds" that do party wide damage when killed, AND is covered by 2 lesser versions of itself. Sure, they're easy to kill, but that sounds like someone at least put thought into that one. Not just the encounter, but the mechanics. I don't recall seeing that anywhere else in any other dungeon so far, and please correct me if I'm wrong. Remove the door, and what would you get? Speed junkies who'd gather them up, then likely die due to the constant aoes also hitting the spumes, making both the aoes a bad idea AND the healer having to keep up with constant incoming party wide damage. Turn 2 for what.

Come on man, how many of us have seen people with at least 1 or 2 poetics/HA pieces pull the first 4 to 5 mobs in Snowcloak then get wrecked simply because of more damage in than out? I can't say it enough; the "old" method was possible because things were too easy. Things actually hit back and pose a threat, even if still totally manageable with a good party. Those who aren't careful, get wrecked. And truthfully, deserve it.

And I'm gonna be that bad person and just say it: You say you want at least want interesting mechanics if you HAVE to slow down or be stopped, but then what? Gonna still try to stick to "old methods" and complain when that doesn't work? Get real, people. The bar got raised. The "old" method is a knife. . . Welcome to the gun fight.

[SpookyGhost]

words

Sastasha NM is a lvl 15 dungeon. Sorry for thinking things might get a bit better at lvl 50. My complaint isn't that they don't drop "a key" (literally said that nowhere, you're talking pure conjecture, don't even know why I'm responding this tbqh), my complaint is that it's 2 mobs that do literally nothing in front of a door that doesn't let you proceed until you beat those 2 mobs. It's really horrible dungeon design and I really don't understand why everyone is excusing it.

If you had the choice between:

1.) 2 mobs that did literally nothing but auto attacks, are squishy as hell, in front of a door that blocks you from proceeding or
2.) 2 mobs that had mechanics you had to deal with that required some semblance of coordination that blocked the path to the next area

which would you rather have? Would you really feel like those 2 mobs held any merit if they did nothing but auto attacks? Why are they special? Why are they the only ones guarding this door? And if they were in charge of it, they should at least do something more than auto attack you. Surely, even the First Mate that is summoned after you kill all the trash in the next room is better fit for guarding this door, if not something more powerful. Am I wrong? Do people feel fine with having a wall guarded by 2 trash enemies that do literally nothing? Does no one want to at least have some challenge in these dungeons if we're not meant to speedrun them? And I'm not talking about even Coil1 level mechanics here, just some sort of "mini boss" guarding the stop signs, something that felt WORTH the time you have to sit there for.

more words

I'm complaining about 2 mobs that serve no purpose but to slow down the time it takes to get from boss B to boss C. While I think trash in general is just as the name implies, some of them actually have mechanics you have to adhere to (Tonberry Stalkers in WP, most of the trash in Lost City, most of the trash in Pharos Sirius, pre-nerf wasps in Qarn NORMAL MODE, etc. etc.). I would actually like it, if I'm forced to stop, to have a little bit of challenge or at least a slight bit of difficulty. Call me insane, but being forced to stop, kill 2 trash mobs who do absolutely nothing lest we forget, and then proceed onward just feels like horrible pacing by the dungeon designers. The next room is fine, but this room just seems... completely pointless. It's not really much of an improvement, but as a counter example there's a room in Snowcloak where it's literally (I believe) 2 dogs and 1 ice bomb. The bomb can explode and do large damage if stood inside of. The fact that that is better than this kind of speaks volumes.

Anyway, "missing the trees for the forest" isn't how that idiom goes but I do understand what you're saying. However, I'm not saying that "THIS IS BAD THEREFORE EVERYTHING IS BAD". I'm saying this thing is bad and is one of the examples where they put absolutely no effort into the trash before the wall. They have put work into other trash, such as the deathdancers or whatever they are that get healed by the spumes as you said. Those are great, they aren't exactly what I'd want but they serve a purpose and make you feel like you've overcame a small obstacle and can now move onto the next one. If that was consistent, I wouldn't be complaining. I don't really care about speedrunning dungeons, Snowcloak as-is is quick enough for me, and while I don't think suicidal tanks should result in SE putting up walls in the dungeon - I can understand why that would be the easiest choice to deal with that issue. Basically, if I can't go fast, I'd at least like to have some fun along the way - that a bad thing or something? Does no one want fun now? Kinda confusing when people are just fine with 2 random trash mobs that do nothing, but are so against speedrunning.

[Firepower]

Real speed running was when the tank aggroed every mob in the dungeon and died where everyone else just followed and raised the tank when the mobs went back to their starting positions.

But aside from that at least these gates stop over zealous tanks pulling more than their party can handle. I don't mind these gates as long as the total dungeon time run in an efficient manner is no longer than the previous set of dungeons as all the previous dungeons don't really take much more than 15-20 mins run by a decent team I wouldn't want newer ones to take longer simply because I think that is the limit for a dungeon.

I think the first CT raid tested the maximum limit for people's patience I believe it was simply too long which is what first encouraged the in progress fishing. ST is a much more reasonable length and flows better.

What I believe would be a more effective manner in this is to introduce the newest dungeons with a switch to toggle a speed run variant and a normal one, the Roulettes can include normal versions but if running standard duty finder you could toggle on a "speed run" button that would be an identical dungeon but with barriers removed for example the doors and keys in Qarn. The reason for this being that your average once a day roulette person is unlikely to be massively bothered if the dungeon isn't speed run, but someone grinding tomes for relic upgrades or light would find it extremely frustrating. If you was able to steamroll it in the most efficient manner, thus allowing them to create a party specifically to speedrun through a dungeon without barriers would make some of these relic grinds quicker and easier.

[Zedd702]

Hot air

Firstly... I answered your why this why that. wah wah wah wah WAAHHH comment. And it's painfully obvious you refused to accept the answer and you know what? That's perfectly fine.

To answer your next paragraph regarding choices. I'd rather the dungeon stay as is. And no, I'm not saying it to be an asshole. I like the dungeon and the way it was designed. What you are complaining of is very minimal that this thread literally serves no purpose tbqh...

The two trash at the door serve a purpose and I will say it again, but this time in bold letters so you don't miss it. They. Are. Guards.

Do you act this way when a celebrity is guarded by bodyguards and is walking about in public, but you think you should be able to approach him/her and have a conversation with them?