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  1. #291
    Player
    Krr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    741
    Character
    Murah Jhida
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPepper View Post
    The fact is, neither of you know enough raiders to make the claim that all or even the majority of them are bad people. Your entire generalization is based off of the party finder and random people in DF groups which is only a small fraction of the people who play this game.
    Except I have personal experience (over 3-4 years) with people who identify themselves as 'HC Raiders', personal experience in this game looking for FCs and statics before finally founding my own group, and personal experience reading and hearing what my friends who still do HC-level raiding have to say about the scene. There are problems with how we organize raids, problems with what we demand to see in our games ('to help promote the health of raiding'), and there are problems with the mindset with which we approach pick-up players.

    Does that make a statement on every single raider as an individual? Hell naw. But it makes a statement on the social norms that at this point, are pretty much baked into raiding, which become an issue when the majority of players who reach 50 only have HC raiding as their main skill-based activity.
    (0)
    Last edited by Krr; 11-08-2014 at 08:37 AM. Reason: dear mods pls remove the post char limit
    video games are bad

  2. #292
    Player
    DoctorPepper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominza
    Posts
    922
    Character
    Doctor Pepper
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Krr View Post
    Except I have personal experience (over 3-4 years) with people who identify themselves as 'HC Raiders', personal experience in this game looking for FCs and statics before finally founding my own group, and personal experience reading and hearing what my friends who still do HC-level raiding have to say about the scene. There are problems with how we organize raids, problems with what we demand to see in our games ('to help promote the health of raiding'), and there are problems with the mindset with which we approach pick-up players.

    Does that make a statement on every single raider as an individual? Hell naw. But it makes a statement on the social norms that at this point, are pretty much baked into raiding, which become an issue when the majority of players who reach 50 only have HC raiding as their main skill-based activity.
    I can't really speak for your personal experience, I'm just saying that generalizations are typically wrong. People who have bad experiences are typically influenced/affected by those experiences more than when they have good experiences and are therefore more vocal about them. Look at the media for example, there's a reason the news is all about the bad things, it's because nobody really seems to care about the good things going on. Happy people are quiet people in most cases.

    It's unfortunate that you had some bad experiences but the fact remains that this game has an average of about 50000-100000 players per server and I doubt you've met even 0.05% of the ones on yours. Generalizations are typically based on little to no evidence, a handful of bad people doesn't make everybody bad.

    Going back to your original question, why is it wrong to hate raiders. It's wrong for the same reasons that it's wrong to hate casuals. I've met plenty of casual players who are total assholes but I'm not going to blackball all the casuals I don't even know because of it.
    (1)
    Last edited by DoctorPepper; 11-08-2014 at 08:47 AM.

  3. #293
    Player Dwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    915
    Character
    Elenath Lanthir
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Krr View Post
    Except I have personal experience (over 3-4 years) with people who identify themselves as 'HC Raiders', personal experience in this game looking for FCs and statics before finally founding my own group, and personal experience reading and hearing what my friends who still do HC-level raiding have to say about the scene. There are problems with how we organize raids, problems with what we demand to see in our games ('to help promote the health of raiding'), and there are problems with the mindset with which we approach pick-up players.

    Does that make a statement on every single raider as an individual? Hell naw. But it makes a statement on the social norms that at this point, are pretty much baked into raiding, which become an issue when the majority of players who reach 50 only have HC raiding as their main skill-based activity.
    And I have experience over 14-15 years of MMO that is literally the contrary of yours. Funny how that works.
    (2)

  4. #294
    Player
    Exstal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,582
    Character
    Shichi Mamura
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Krr View Post
    Does raiding make you part of an oppressed group? Do we need to start a #raidergate tag?
    .
    You'd actually have to call it #RaiderForCasual
    (0)

  5. #295
    Player
    Aana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    485
    Character
    Aana Azel
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Krr View Post
    The only generalization I've seen is that raiders are unhelpful and exclusory. Which is true. Open up your local PF and get a wake-up call as to what "Raiding" is like outside of your small FC group.
    Protip: good raiders aren't making pfs. The shit you see in PF is usually wannabes that think they are hot stuff but got kicked out of their groups for being terrible. Otherwise those 'farming' pfs wouldn't wipe for hours if they were actually good raiders.

    Good raiders don't make groups in pf. This is why casuals don't get what we have said 1000 times. PF is not the way raiding works. Good raiders are pulling from their network they build to create groups and find people. Not broadcasting in df shouts and pf. All these ideas you get about the raiding community from PF comments like no newbs and clear sells are NOT representative of raiders because we don't use those to raid. Network. Connect. Stop relying on PF and make friends. When I make a primal run I go through my fc, ls, and friend list. I don't make a stupid pf. You don't see what real Raiders are doing because it's silent. Stop reading pf lines and judging an entire community based on it.
    (7)
    Last edited by Aana; 11-08-2014 at 10:16 AM.

  6. #296
    Player
    Vynny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1
    Character
    Traves Elerius
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 50
    So your argument is that raiders are selfish inconsiderate people because after spending hours and hours of their own time learning a fight with their group they do not put up learning groups in pf and teach the casuals how to do the fight, but instead sell runs to people (who are most likely gil buyers) instead of teaching them how to actually do the fight. My question is, isn't it selfish of the casual players to expect the raiders to walk the casuals through the fights solely at the expense of the raiders time?
    (7)

  7. #297
    Player
    NyarukoW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    842
    Character
    Ai Hana
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Aana View Post
    Protip: good raiders aren't making pfs. The shit you see in PF is usually wannabes that think they are hot stuff but got kicked out of their groups for being terrible. Otherwise those 'farming' pfs wouldn't wipe for hours if they were actually good raiders...
    Yet those people treat newer players like they have ebola and want a "no newbies allowed" checkbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aana View Post
    Network. Connect...
    You don't see what real Raiders are doing because it's silent.
    Well isn't that a funny one. How do you network and connect with people who are silent? How do you break into that secret of club so silent gestures and hidden signals? I suppose it is a secret society that is not likely to accept newcomers, i.e. exclusive.
    (4)
    Last edited by NyarukoW; 11-09-2014 at 09:30 AM.

  8. #298
    Player Dwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    915
    Character
    Elenath Lanthir
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by NyarukoW View Post
    Yet those people treat newer players like they have ebola and want a "no newbies allowed" checkbox.
    Yet you treat raiders like the same and want them to help anyone and everyone. The hypocritical attitude is strong in you.
    (5)

  9. #299
    Player
    NyarukoW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    842
    Character
    Ai Hana
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwill View Post
    Yet you treat raiders like the same and want them to help anyone and everyone. The hypocritical attitude is strong in you.
    Asking raiders to extend a hand when they can is not hating them. The player base needs their help if and when they can extend it. And I always express my thanks for their assistance. There is no hypocritical attitude. I am asking people to try to be inclusive if they can. I don't avoid raiders and certainly do NOT consider them as ebola carriers. You are so eager to call me names that you come up with the goofiest non-sequitors.

    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynny View Post
    So your argument is that raiders are selfish inconsiderate people because ..they do not put up learning groups in pf and teach the casuals how to do the fight.
    That is such a strawman. The raiders if they feel like can put up learning parties, but that is not what they need for certain and would be beyond the bounds of reasonable expectations. What they can do is if they see a learning pf, and if they have time, perhaps they can help for 30 minutes or so. Don't rage quit and yell at people when they tire of the wipes. But certainly raiders should not behave like clear sellers who obviously have the time since they are selling clears like 24/7 with advertising on the PF, and don't bother to join a learning PF that is there and being ignored by the clear seller.
    (3)
    Last edited by NyarukoW; 11-09-2014 at 09:41 AM.

  10. #300
    Player Dwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    915
    Character
    Elenath Lanthir
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by NyarukoW View Post
    Asking raiders to extend a hand when they can is not hating them. The player base needs their help if and when they can extend it. And I always express my thanks for their assistance. There is no hypocritical attitude. I am asking people to try to be inclusive if they can. I don't avoid raiders and certainly do NOT consider them as ebola carriers. You are so eager to call me names that you come up with the goofiest non-sequitors.
    Except that plenty of raiders do the exact things you mention yet your tune doesn't change. You make a hyperbole of the whole situation and ignore any argument proving you wrong.
    (3)

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