Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Hyrist]

No, the answer isn't to just stay quiet and make excuses such as "Rome wasn't built in a day" so SE can justify slacking off. The answer is to continue to offer suggestions, draw comparisons, and hope that someday the *right* dev will see the thread and that light bulb will go off in his\her head.

Or the light-bulb can come on in yours and you can realize that perhaps you are not the target audience SE is hoping to reach. And that those of differing tastes are not lesser people or gamers for it.


Square Enix, nor FFXIV's development team in particular, are under no pressure to 'see the light' in this particular case. And it's a thinly veiled insult to believe that one set of design path is the 'correct' one, rather than stating one's own preferences and leaving it at that.

This by no means is encouraging you to be silent, but instead to be more respectful when you're providing feedback, and attempt to see matters beyond your own viewpoint.

Providing ideas that appeal to you is fine, but be aware when those ideas may not fit within the vision of the game itself or the ideals of other groups of its players. There are plenty if people that have provide concise feedback as to why such level of depth has, thus far, been discouraged by the development (And they have not hidden that fact, they have repeatedly explained their philosophy of a simplified combat system that makes more use of existing skills rather than flooding a skill menu.).

There comes a point when you have to realize that perhaps you have a impasse of design philosophy, and then decide whether or not that impasse is going to prevent you from remaining a subscriber.

Asking for this level of complexity in a game that values a minimalist approach, on my observations, seems to be clashing that impasse intentionally.

I understand your and his points. But even in XI's subjob system, you usually have a few options, even if it's just 2~5, and more if you solo. Rather than everything being ironclad, and the only thing that really changes from fight to fight is when you strafe left or right to dodge mechanics while doing your rotation. Yes, some builds will be shunned, but even a couple options and configurations is better than none, IMO. And if it's something you can tinker with while solo or in the open world for nontraditional builds, that's something I think will be pretty neat as well.

I understand this concern. However, for me I feel that such aspects at this, infant level juncture of the game (Do not count FFXIV 1.0 as a point in history, the game was reconstructed neigh completely only barely reusing assets that saved them development time. Most of the game was scrapped or re-coded.) only a year in, I can't expect that depth to truly grow so quickly. ToAU was multiple years into FFXI's development.

My desire as far as increase of depth comes from the Job system template we have in Arcanist. Skills we have are utilized in differing methods providing new directions for existing mechanics. Pretty clearly I can see portions of the Lancer Class that could be used, with some tweaks, to construct Lancer into a Tank, which I would love to be able to do.

As far as - off beat builds. FFXIV does what FFXI dared not to - allow skills to be exchangeable with classes on a singular basis. Nothing but peer pressure prevents a player from making an off-beat build by cherry picking class skills available to them at the sacrifice of Job Mechanics. Gearing would be the biggest difficulty forseeable in that aspect, and even then, there are a wider array of options than players notice.

The vast majority elect to overlook these methods for the very reason why a varied system would be a poor idea - efficiency. So the design challenge is creating a system that allows viable variance in classes. And if the developers follow through with their Class/Job idea, with a bit of refinement, I can see it working out quite well.

[Risvertasashi]

Asking for this level of complexity in a game that values a minimalist approach, on my observations, seems to be clashing that impasse intentionally.

Sadly, I do fear you're right. I really love FFXIV for a lot of things but the minimalism everywhere isn't one of them. However, I don't think it's necessarily as contradictory as you think. I think both audiences can reasonably be served. Even XI had its simple and straightforward jobs.

But that is why I wanted to open this discussion. If SE feels there's an audience to be served, and that they can do it without breaking their carefully designed setup... maybe, just maybe, we'll see something. I do think it's worthwhile to open these threads and have these discussions, even if SE eventually comes back with a firm "no." I'm sorry if you feel it's a waste of time.

[Hyrist]

Sadly, I do fear you're right. I really love FFXIV for a lot of things but the minimalism everywhere isn't one of them. However, I don't think it's necessarily as contradictory as you think. I think both audiences can reasonably be served. Even XI had its simple and straightforward jobs.

But that is why I wanted to open this discussion. If SE feels there's an audience to be served, and that they can do it without breaking their carefully designed setup... maybe, just maybe, we'll see something. I do think it's worthwhile to open these threads and have these discussions, even if SE eventually comes back with a firm "no." I'm sorry if you feel it's a waste of time.

A small note, I gave a more personalized reply in a previous edit, if you care to read it.

It's not so much of a waste of time as a bad utilization of intent. There is a certain bounds we have to realize we can work within, and move on from there. In this case I would say keep in mind, with the complexity you desire, we are still dealing with a large number of players who play primarily on a gamepad. I count myself among them. If we were to design complexity, we have to keep it at least simple enough, so that they can properly utilize it.

I fear that people are so consumed with thinking outside the box, that they're leaving the very stadium of thought that the game was designed within. If we were to make our adjustments more gradual or streamlined, suggestions would have a much higher chance of being heard and replied to, and then the depth, or at least a fair compromise of said desired depth, could be reached in a different, but still satisfactory manner.

[DefendPopPunk]

I fear that people are so consumed with thinking outside the box, that they're leaving the very stadium of thought that the game was designed within.

The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users that apparently did fine with a complex pet job system using gamepads. I get that some requests seem outrageous when they seem to deviate far from what we've come to expect of FFXIV, but without those requests and really seeing what the devs can really do with them, how will we know just how far this game can go in terms of complex and rewarding gameplay? Yes, we all differ in our perception of complex and rewarding, but I think you can get the point.

[Souljacker]

The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users that apparently did fine with a complex pet job system using gamepads.

It's not just him, though. I remember a quote someone posted from Yoshi-P himself that echoed the same sentiment. It was regarding making Summoner more complex in terms of pet use and the fear was that if the job was challenging, people would find it too difficult. I think that some are actually doing SE a disservice for suggesting that they aren't capable of designing an experience that can be challenging yet work under the constraints of a Console\Gamepad.

Ps2 "limitations" barrier was broken multiple times over the years, if anyone has the talent to shoehorn an experience onto a playstation, it's definitely SE.

[Hyrist]

The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users ...

I was baiting that reply. Because if we are designing puppetmaster, or any other class based off FFXI mechanics, we have to keep some things in mind.

First off, FFXI was a menu-based MMO, verses a Hotbar based we have now. Much of what made FFXI workable with a controller, was the extensive Macro writing on behalf of the players that made the game functional for them. There was much, much legwork required to play the game adequately, and much of it is not even possible in FFXIV, such as Gear Swapping.

We also have to keep in mind that the mechanics of FFXI appealed to a highly niche audience. The amount of intricacy of the class would likely have to be tuned to to audience this game is targeting, rather than a simple transposition of concept. You could bleed far more players than you retain if you cause the gameplay to shift to a level of being so obtrusive that it raises the barrier for entry.

Additionally, the pacing of the game was much, much slower, allowing more methodical methods to be used, and fit with the theme of the game. In similar respects, look at how the concept of Ninja was created. 3 Runes, that in various combination, creates different attacks - rather than a large spell list. Complexity through simplicity. I can see Puppetmaster working in similar methods, with fewer parts and components to overwhem a player with.

However, certain marrying of concepts have at their base line come with pretty bad consequences - a clear example of matters is how Hunts (open world competitive content) was implemented and the fallout that is still occurring on that as they continually adjust it.

So caution, more caution then they have displayed, I feel, is warranted when pitching and handling these ideas.

[DefendPopPunk]

I was baiting that reply. Because if we are designing puppetmaster, or any other class based off FFXI mechanics, we have to keep some things in mind.

I wasn't arguing for a puppetmaster based off of FFXI mechanics. Also, I know the difference between the two games, so going into detail about it is kind of pointless. I still play FFXI so trust me when I say I know how cumbersome that game could be, and that's not what I'm advocating turning this game into. What I am saying is that just because players use a gamepad on this game and just because this game's combat is a little bit more fast paced doesn't mean that there isn't room for complexity. You even said yourself that there is complexity through simplicity. This game doesn't have to become FFXI to have its own interesting and complex gameplay mechanics. As for bleeding subscribers, well, it goes both ways I'm sure. FFXIV has always seemed about pleasing every crowd.

[Sonofbaldo]

I've never seen so much excuse making in my life. Some of you act like SE doesnt have nearing 40 years of experience in RPG's and almost 15 in MMO's. You act like its some fledgling company making their first ever game.

I'm not even going to bother pulling out quotes from all the hypocrites who insinuate that people who's opinions differ are not the "target audience". Such arrogance. Just because you blindly love everything this game produces doesn't mean you are the sole target audience. If games cater to one side of the coin they will die and die quickly as it dissolves into a small band of die hards which seems to be already happening.

The dev team has time and again said XIV's impossible to achieve goal is to please everyone. Anybody who has half a brain knows that that is impossible. It is just an excuse to be gutless with their choices. An excuse to play everything safe and let other game companies take the design risks so they can just copy them later.

As for the people who say it took XI years to get End Game content, it also took that long to get to the point where you were ready for End Game. The world was rich with content leading to that point. It was a journey. It wasnt...ok i'm going to put my pants on and run a handful of chores and wham bam thank you ma'am lets do this End Game stuff!!!!

Also the elitist demands of wearing certain gear, or playing certain subs, and all of those other things did not run rampant in XI till well after ToAU. I would also like to break the news to you that those players that made and enforced those rules by shunning people are the very people that defend XIV the way it is now. Look in the mirrors kiddies, because you are the ones that started this. That's why video games have to be so simple now. So if you think you are the majority and the "target audience", you are the elitists who cried and whined until everything had to be your way.

Just thought I'd throw in a dose of reality.

[Hyrist]

Just thought I'd throw in a dose of reality.

So... when are you going to throw it in?

All I saw was accusations and bitter grapes about a design team who took a philosophy you disagreed with. FFXI was appealing.... to about 500k, less than a quarter of our subscriber base, not even including China. And 100k MORE than Yoshida was expecting to get at launch.

So, gripe all you like. The dose of reality here is, the current approach is working. Can't wait to see the Census data.

[Risvertasashi]

So, gripe all you like. The dose of reality here is, the current approach is working. Can't wait to see the Census data.

Doesn't mean things can't be even better than now.

I don't like vertical progression so much, but I can't argue that, as you point out, it works. In the case of jobs, however, adding what we're seeking here doesn't require changes to the existing ones, or in any way subtract from the current systems. There is only the potential to add more to the game.