Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Themis]

Wasn't PUP (the job being compared to) released in Treasures of Aht Urhgan Expansion which was still lvl 75? It was released in 2006 btw, way before even FFXIV 1.0 was created so what are you talking about? Also... a game MADE BY SE, had a decade to be polished and seen what works and doesn't... and then most of the experience gathered from creating it is ignored when ARR was being made. It's not like XIV 1.0 and ARR was their first MMO.

The simple truth is that XIV is designed for new players and new MMO players more than it is experienced XI veterans.

Target audience is very much applicable here. Back when XI was released, and during it's development, it was played by a lot of experienced MMO players (especially from EQ which was a primary reason why Square made XI). That's what is being ignored by the player base who have to compare XI to XIV all the time. Different games, different target audiences. There's this strange notion that a new MMO must have everything that every other MMO has had since the first ones came out. I mean, why not... it's not like this is the first MMO to ever be made, either.

On the topic of the level of design into classes, look at how they designed Arcanist for this game. Enough to provide some basic pet interaction, but nothing highly advanced or tactical about their control or AI. This is because it allows the player to focus less on their pet management and more on their own gameplay. Having to focus on just 1 thing can be a lot for a new player (even for some long term players). Having them focus on multiple would be going against the whole "we made this game for new players to start to get into an MMO" ideal.

3.0 is also being designed with this "new player" philosophy in mind, and that's a wise decision. SE know, I'm sure, that the 1st expansion is one of the biggest milestones that ARR will ever meet. Most players will decide at this point whether they want to keep going, and players who have had their eye on the game will decide whether they really want to give it a try. The main audience being targeted are these players who may not have played an MMO before, or even a game (beyond the mobile cash generators they'll most likely have played).

What we need to hope for, though, is that after this big marker we can start to see a general shift in the game direction towards something much more suited to those who have been playing for a while. This I see happening. Basically, the game will grow with it's player base, and the "age" of that player base (by that, I mean how long the average player has been playing for). That age, though, is tied to how long XIV has existed since 2.0, not from when some players first started playing MMOs. Thus, XIV's current design should reflect that of an MMO that is 1 year old. Not compared to an MMO that is now over 12 years old. What worked for XI doesn't have to be carried over into XIV. Neither do the lessons taught and learned in XI have to be carried over to XIV. They are different games, and the design direction for XIV is not the same as XIs in any way or shape at all.

[BloodPact]

Wasn't PUP (the job being compared to) released in Treasures of Aht Urhgan Expansion which was still lvl 75? It was released in 2006 btw, way before even FFXIV 1.0 was created so what are you talking about?.

That's still 25 levels above the current cap in this game. And it's 7 more years of development and planning compared to this game as well. My point still stands.
Furthermore, I'll tell you what; I have no idea what's being pointed at in XI when the OP means "level of depth" because, yes, there were many options to choose from in terms of abilities and spells but at 75 cap (which is when I left) you barely used half of those abilities, if anything, as a magic user. If melee it was even worse. Not to mention that you could watch two episodes of a series in Netflix before having to use your next weaponskill or while resting for MP.
Combos in this game give a flow to the abilites as you get them and it is a good way to make you use your whole arsenal instead of just spamming the most powerful skill, which is what usually ended up happening in XI's endgame.

[Tupsi]

Because this is XIV, not XI. Sorry.

It's not WoW either but alas.

[Baneus]

It's not WoW either but alas.

Indeed. And unlike FFXI and WoW, FFXIV doesn't have 10(ish) years of development (yet. Here's hoping it does).

"Oh, but they should have learned from the past" You think they haven't? They have more access to what people do in the background of a game than any player ever will. All the "I think"s and "but all my friends" are not really good indicators of what the entire playerbase is doing.

The game is moving forward. What we have right now is the basic framework for the future, but it is not what the game will look like even one year from now (keeping in mind that expansions are often used as an opportunity to make sweeping changes to mechanics and classes).

[Fendred]

Indeed. And unlike FFXI and WoW, FFXIV doesn't have 10(ish) years of development (yet. Here's hoping it does).

"Oh, but they should have learned from the past" You think they haven't? They have more access to what people do in the background of a game than any player ever will. All the "I think"s and "but all my friends" are not really good indicators of what the entire playerbase is doing.

The game is moving forward. What we have right now is the basic framework for the future, but it is not what the game will look like even one year from now (keeping in mind that expansions are often used as an opportunity to make sweeping changes to mechanics and classes).

They set up the game based on a lot of things that a western MMORPG developer trying to make a better MMORPG would probably avoid if not for how corporate money has influenced developers in the west.

Why was there exactly one tank, one healer, and two DPS positions in the party setup? Because they had 2 tank, 2 healer, and 4 DPS roles. They made an assumption that is plainly and obviously false to anyone who has been into MMORPGs in the west for a long time: That players will evenly distribute themselves throughout the available jobs when one or more jobs possess a clear DPS advantage. That's been around since WoW's release in 2004. I'd even venture the cross-server party match making system (duty finder), which was introduced in WoW as a last resort to solve the queue problem from the class imbalance, was simply put in because of its popularity in other games as opposed to why WoW's development team placed it in their game.

More recently, Yoshida was surprised to find people socially networking in order to overcome the challenge that hunts present. His accident created something that has the seeds of something good and genuine: Obstacles that can only be overcome by putting aside everyone's differences in order to overcome the challenge.

What I'm trying to say is, they don't know what necessarily will make an MMORPG in today's market successful and they've plainly stated that Japan does not have many MMORPG developers. They have no point of reference like we do from years of success and failures. Instead, the game is an experiment in putting different concepts together and seeing what happens.

[Seiryuukishi]

It's not WoW either but alas.

You're right, it's not WOW. It's Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. No cartoon land here.

[Morningstar1337]

Why can't we have jobs that have this kind of customization and depth in FFXIV? My FC doesn't understand why I refuse to play DPS in XIV, but... if there was something like this... I wouldn't even care if it was shunned in endgame, I'd be all over it anyway.

>Because Arcanist

[Celes_Chere]

bc ffxiv was catered to everyone. not ocd ppl who will go the extra nine yards. im one of those ocd people.

anyways what it comes down to is.

different team, different game.

ffxi is for ocd neurotic players.

ffxiv is for the everyday gamer.

loved ffxi, watched every cutscene. it was an epic saga.

enjoy ffxiv, skipped every cutscene. yawn* don't feel the same epicness. skip!

again. different games. different times.

ffxiv regresses in gameplay and story in comparison with ffxi, but thats what the times call for.

just love it for what it is not what it isn't.

[Alipoprocks]

bc ffxiv was catered to everyone. not ocd ppl who will go the extra nine yards. im one of those ocd people.

anyways what it comes down to is.

different team, different game.

ffxi is for ocd neurotic players.

ffxiv is for the everyday gamer.

loved ffxi, watched every cutscene. it was an epic saga.

enjoy ffxiv, skipped every cutscene. yawn* don't feel the same epicness. skip!

again. different games. different times.

ffxiv regresses in gameplay and story in comparison with ffxi, but thats what the times call for.

just love it for what it is not what it isn't.

LOL, that's what I said but with much less words. There were many, many posts asking this game to be more like XI. It's a very old topic and not going to happen.

[Risvertasashi]

Please note that I'm not in any way expecting FFXIV to be FFXI-2.

I just pulled that example because I found it fascinating how much setup and customization you could do in that job. It's not like FFXI is the only MMO to have stuff like that (But it is the same franchise...).

I know FFXIV is not those other games. I don't want FFXIv to "be like FFXI" But back to my OP: Why can't we have depth and heavy customization with any of our jobs?

I know that playstyle isn't for everyone but we already have lots of jobs with a straight forward rotation and no customization. Why can't we have some on the other side of that spectrum too?