Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Velox]

FFXIV will never be FFXI because it would render FFXI obsolete. There's a reason those servers are still live...so people who enjoy complexity can play the game. FFXIV is a game for people who enjoy simplicity. It's not and will never be FFXI-2.

It amazese how many people complain "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and yet don't have the common sense to just go play XI. Hell the game is there to be played, seriously, go play it.

[File2ish]

FFXIV will never be FFXI because it would render FFXI obsolete. There's a reason those servers are still live...so people who enjoy complexity can play the game. FFXIV is a game for people who enjoy simplicity. It's not and will never be FFXI-2.

It amazese how many people complain "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and yet don't have the common sense to just go play XI. Hell the game is there to be played, seriously, go play it.

I think you mistake what's being said as "make this game XI-2" and not seeing the intended meaning. This topic is less "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and more "XIV has jobs with very simple mechanics, here's an example of what a future class/job could be similar to."

What's wrong with looking to SE's past works and examining ideas that worked that could be altered (probably heavily so it isn't super complex and it won't break the game) and implemented in some way into XIV:ARR (a game that is still growing in many ways).

It's unlikely the combat system will ever change, but who's to say we can't have at least one class/job work with at least some more complexity than what we already have?

And people left XI for various reasons: to find a new experience, dwindling server populations, friends quitting, unable to sink several hours a day into the game because of real life, not liking the new expansions, falling too far behind and are unwilling to catch up, etc. among a slew of others reasons. Just generalizing it into "people who enjoy complexity can play [FFXI]. FFXIV is a game for people who enjoy simplicity." just doesn't work. Hardened FFXI players certainly aren't the target audience, they never were for ARR. But it doesn't mean more complex mechanics can be implemented in some way in the future.

Expansions, updates, new jobs... There's a lot in store for this game, it's not unreasonable to expect the game to grow even slightly more complex as time goes on and new content is implemented.

[Luvbunny]

This topic is less "XI had this, why doesn't XIV?" and more "XIV has jobs with very simple mechanics, here's an example of what a future class/job could be similar to."What's wrong with looking to SE's past works and examining ideas that worked that could be altered (probably heavily so it isn't super complex and it won't break the game) and implemented in some way into XIV:ARR (a game that is still growing in many ways). It's unlikely the combat system will ever change, but who's to say we can't have at least one class/job work with at least some more complexity than what we already have? .

But there is nothing remotely "simple" about FF14 game mechanic. Yes some stuffs are somewhat scripted in a way that you need "certain roles" in your party set up, mostly for 4 people duty finder to make it easier for everyone to clear contents. FF14 Jobs has more than enough rotation buttons, far more than FFXI set up, and far far far more complex for certain jobs to be able to play properly. There is nothing complex about FFXI, you swap gears with your macro when your perform certain stuffs, but you mainly spam "weapon skills" at 100 TP, and maybe a few job abilities, like 6-8 buttons macro at most for melee. Not sure where "FFXI is more complex" opinion is coming from.

Pet jobs are the BANE of FFXI existence, over 11 years in the making and the old team (and the new team) has no clue on how to solve this "complex" riddles. Puppetmaster was absolute trash job for years and years with no remedy in fixing the pet AI till recently, half baked solutions at best. Beastmaster was given a fix in Abysea era then the team could not evolve past that. Summoner in FFXI is a hot tranny mess, it was somewhat decent during Abysea era, and now it languishing and in dire need of revision.

[Alukah]

Perhaps if people stop using XI (or 1.x) as example for suggestions they wouldn't be ignored or refused. If that Miqo'te nose thread didn't pretty much ask to turn Miqo'te into Mithra the Com. Rep. response would have been different. It is important how you present your suggestion, specially when our devs are making sure this game looks and feels different from XI (or 1.x).

Even after reading the red bold words in the original post I still read "XI has this, why can't we have this?".

[File2ish]

But there is nothing remotely "simple" about FF14 game mechanic. Yes some stuffs are somewhat scripted in a way that you need "certain roles" in your party set up, mostly for 4 people duty finder to make it easier for everyone to clear contents.

By simple, I'm referring to the rotations. 1-2-3-A-B-C,repeat + weave other stuff in if possible. Fast paced, little time to think before GCD is ready for the next ability.

XI was simple as well. Buffs (if applicable to the job), Auto attack -> WS (preferably to skillchain with others) or cast strongest spell of the enemy mob's weakness. + Depending on skillchain, cast specific element for magic burst damage. Slow paced, time to decide best course of action regarding skills and magic.

Both of them are, in a word: Simple. (And yes, that was very abbreviated and didn't detail every single mechanic of either).

I'm very well aware of how XIV:ARR works, and how XI works. The "complexity" of XI is more along the strategies involved in gameplay and ability use, not the battle mechanics themselves. In the end neither XI, XIV 1.XX, nor XIV:ARR are very "complex". XI and 1.XX had more complicated mechanics such as elemental attributes that actually mattered, for instance. And XI had skills and spells up up the wazoo which gave a more complicated feel, if only because of choice (trust me, I mained Red Mage). Whereas ARR has more of a scripted approach (as you said) and are almost required to dodge. The current jobs in ARR, however, feel even more simple than the auto attacking-weapon skilling of XI.

Why not have a DPS job that works at least somewhat differently that what we have already? Not asking for anything like SMN, PUP, or BST from XI. Nor for Red Mage as it was in XI with it's insane list of spells; All of those would need a ton of editing, and the pet jobs would probably end up as Summoner did in ARR (small pet, player character does most of the work and damage) in order to work in ARR's battle system.

I'm not saying we should have the elemental attributes or anything of the like that we currently don't have or need (elements, skillchains, etc. would likely break the game as it stands). Nor am I saying the battle system should slow down in any way. But do we need to stick to rotations for all new jobs? Will tanks and DPS be forever locked to the same rotations as the level cap eventually gets raised? Can we get something more out of the system for another job fitting within the 3 roles we have?

Perhaps we can, Ninja might be the first job that shows "complexity" in comparison to say DRG and MNK. They said it will have mudras, right? Let's see how they work and how it pans out. ARR's mechanics definitely don't work for the auto-attacking being a main source of damage output, which is why we have rotations for skills. It's unavoidable to have skills being our main source of damage output. How will mudras change the gameplay style (if they do)? Maybe Ninja won't have a set 1-2-3-A-B-C repeat rotation like DRG and MNK that dictates the amount of potency an attack has (or for monk's case positional + being unable to use skills outside of a stance). Maybe it will have multiple stance you set manually or by using specific mudras? Or perhaps they found another way to change it up. It would be a welcome change for some, and perhaps a big turn off for others.

In the end: We don't want anything overly complex. Merely, I'm saying perhaps something to change it up a bit.

But there is nothing remotely "simple" about FF14 game mechanic. Yes some stuffs are somewhat scripted in a way that you need "certain roles" in your party set up, mostly for 4 people duty finder to make it easier for everyone to clear contents. FF14 Jobs has more than enough rotation buttons, far more than FFXI set up, and far far far more complex for certain jobs to be able to play properly. There is nothing complex about FFXI, you swap gears with your macro when your perform certain stuffs, but you mainly spam "weapon skills" at 100 TP, and maybe a few job abilities, like 6-8 buttons macro at most for melee. Not sure where "FFXI is more complex" opinion is coming from.

And you updated while I was typing =p

Just saying: rotation + amount of buttons available =/= complexity. FFXI had multiple jobs that weren't just sit and wait for TP and had reactionary gameplay rather than static. It offers the same complexity as ARR, but in different ways.

Thief: Sneak Attack Trick Attack. Position mattered in order to help the tank hold hate.

Dancer (my other main job): Steps use a small amount of TP to place a debuff, regain TP with reverse flourish from the stacks steps gave. Also healing with TP, party endrain/enaspir/enhaste buff depending on situation, etc.

Blue Mage: Wide variety of spells ranging from buffs to heals to attacks to debuffs.

Ranger: Range you shoot your bow/gun/crossbow from actually effected how much damage you do. Knowing when a good time to use barrage and other skills was, etc.

Corsair: Roll dice for effects.

Ninja: Proper use and timing of Utsusemi Ichi and Ni so you don't die (because Ninja tank) and use of other Ninjutsu for specific types of debuffs.

Scholar: Flipping between black and white magic stances when necessary (yes, in party situations as well).

I daresay there could be more complexity in XI than there is in ARR.

[Fendred]

I approve of any thread asking for more depth to combat. We've had various requests of the same category for some time now.

[Luvbunny]

I approve of any thread asking for more depth to combat. We've had various requests of the same category for some time now.

It really baffles me that people think this game is too simple.... This game is "easy to pick up" and yet has its own complex system to master. FFXI melee is quite simple, pretty much auto attack, wait for 100 TP and cycle your job abilities with a few macros. That is it, no dance around, no avoiding anything much, you auto attack and hit abilities. Support and healing job maybe a bit more work and gear swap macro makes things more complex (a big waste of time). The amount of spells there for mage jobs is absurd... People think "simplicity" is bad... The hardest thing to do is to create a simple to pick up and play game but has enough complexity to master.

I think FF14 did a great job in achieving its goal to appeal to most players and yet still retain some depth. We do not need FFXI garbage complex syndrome to invade this game. And NO SUPPORT JOB EVER!!! PERIOD. END OF STORY. Unless your idea of gaming is "we cannot clear content without XYZ support jobs". Where players refuse to do endgame events if there is no "stun lock" job (aka Stun Scholar). In FFXI the new standard is you must have an level 119 weapons and gear to clear level 119 content where you need to get those gears in the first place, lol, so you need 119 gears but you cannot participate in the said content because you don't have level 119 gears.

If FF14 will turn into the absolute hot mess of FFXI "complex spaghetti code" where even the new team is having a hard time fixing the current game, people will abandon any Duty Finder events in droves the minute they see "support job VIP Diva Primadonna" is not in their party (I am looking at you "FFXI Bard"). And then players start demanding that if you play support then you MUST have top of the line weapon, or don't even bother coming and playing on "daily duty roulette" anything.

[Fendred]

It really baffles me that people think this game is too simple.... This game is "easy to pick up" and yet has its own complex system to master. FFXI melee is quite simple, pretty much auto attack, wait for 100 TP and cycle your job abilities with a few macros. That is it, no dance around, no avoiding anything much, you auto attack and hit abilities. Support and healing job maybe a bit more work and gear swap macro makes things more complex (a big waste of time). The amount of spells there for mage jobs is absurd... People think "simplicity" is bad... The hardest thing to do is to create a simple to pick up and play game but has enough complexity to master.

It's not that they can't make interesting jobs, but at end game things are about trying to create an interesting team experience. I love the complexity of the monk. However, all of the monk's complexity doesn't do anything to make teamwork interesting. Also, just because an approach didn't work in some other game doesn't mean that developers should throw their collective hands in the air and give up on finding different solutions. There is more than one way to cook an egg, and the same applies to building combat systems.

[Zumi]

I think that FFXIV being different then FFXI is fine.

FFXI is having a 1 free week for anyone who has ever had a FFXI account from Wed 10-17th and I think you can download the newest expansion SoA for free to try out. You could actually try that game out again if you and see if it was nostalgia or not.

[Redemption]

I think that FFXIV being different then FFXI is fine.

FFXI is having a 1 free week for anyone who has ever had a FFXI account from Wed 10-17th and I think you can download the newest expansion SoA for free to try out. You could actually try that game out again if you and see if it was nostalgia or not.

So if you played FFXI my question to you is if you feel this way, why Leave FFXI? You came to FFXIV for something new right, so why do you want the same stuff that you left from?

I mean why leave FFXI if you want the same thing, no point in that.

This game hasn't even got a first expansion and yeah it is a fun game.

Seriously, stop saying this... FFXI bears no resemblance to what it was like in its prime and is now running similar mechanics to what FFXIV is using. This is why fans of FFXI are not playing FFXI. I personally, would be over there right now if Seekers of Adoulin hadn't destroyed the already wrecked game in the aftermath of abyssea. Besides, theres no reason why good concepts from FFXI can't come over as long as they work in the environment here.