Why can't we have jobs with this level of depth and customization in FFXIV?

[Gilthas]

See, the problem with this and other comments like it is that the developers can't say "Well we didn't add this until 5ish years or whatever into our other mmo, so we can skate by with not improving upon that process because hey, it's only a year old!" And it's NOT only a year old. YoshiP has been on the project for a short time, but the game has been in development\reconstruction\planning\etc for over half a decade now. They really can't use the "it's brand, spanking new" excuse when they have almost 15 years experience in building mmos. The complexity should have been there from the start because you always want to improve upon your last project, and if nothing else, should certainly be working its way in there now, 5 years into the endeavor.

Ever heard of the expression "Rome wasn't built in a day"? Same thing applies to games. You don't toss out "complex" systems at release without the battle system going through the ropes. Just look at all the problems Warrior had at release.

Side-note though: I just have to lol at your jibes at FFXIV being simple (in some aspects it is, others it's more complex) and unchallenging, while FFXI was complex and challenging. People need to stop "glorifying" the challenge of FFXI when most of it came from players being at the mercy of rng. As for complexity, well, it is true that we gear swapped a lot. Can't really say that I miss those days though.

[Souljacker]

Ever heard of the expression "Rome wasn't built in a day"? Same thing applies to games. You don't toss out "complex" systems at release without the battle system going through the ropes. Just look at all the problems Warrior had at release.

Are you talking about ARR's release or the game's actual release? I guess ARR's, since warrior didn't exist. That's just another example of poor project planning, and no real testing phase. SE *should* be held accountable, and no one has ever expected them to fix everything overnight. In fact, many of us have patiently waited for YEARS for the game to even be playable, much less rich, challenging and complex.

No, the answer isn't to just stay quiet and make excuses such as "Rome wasn't built in a day" so SE can justify slacking off. The answer is to continue to offer suggestions, draw comparisons, and hope that someday the *right* dev will see the thread and that light bulb will go off in his\her head.

[Gilthas]

Are you talking about ARR's release or the game's actual release? I guess ARR's, since warrior didn't exist. That's just another example of poor project planning, and no real testing phase. SE *should* be held accountable, and no one has ever expected them to fix everything overnight. In fact, many of us have patiently waited for YEARS for the game to even be playable, much less rich, challenging and complex.

No, the answer isn't to just stay quiet and make excuses such as "Rome wasn't built in a day" so SE can justify slacking off. The answer is to continue to offer suggestions, draw comparisons, and hope that someday the *right* dev will see the thread and that light bulb will go off in his\her head.

Well, it's easy for the couch battle system designers to point fingers and call developers lazy.

[Souljacker]

Well, it's easy for the couch battle system designers to point fingers and call developers lazy.

Where in my post did I call anyone lazy? I said they don't get a free pass to slack off just because some folks think sticking a new title on a game resets the clock. If anything, now is the time to work even harder. A major MMO has an expansion looming. Other major mmos are also gaining traction, and now is a critical time for SE to prove why XIV should get all those dollars. You like things the way they are? FANTASTIC. Congratulations, even.

I tend to take the long view of things, and without criticism and developers that actually listen to it, we have disasters like 1.0 was. You may not remember it. It sure sounds like you weren't around for it...

This by no means is encouraging you to be silent, but instead to be more respectful when you're providing feedback, and attempt to see matters beyond your own viewpoint.

I invite you to quote the part of any of these posts that was "disrespectful". You may not like what I have to say, and the truth sometimes hurts, but that doesn't make my posts "disrespectful".

[Triston]

I invite you to quote the part of any of these posts that was "disrespectful". You may not like what I have to say, and the truth sometimes hurts, but that doesn't make my posts "disrespectful".

Where in my post did I call anyone lazy? I said they don't get a free pass to slack off just because some folks think sticking a new title on a game resets the clock. If anything, now is the time to work even harder. A major MMO has an expansion looming. Other major mmos are also gaining traction, and now is a critical time for SE to prove why XIV should get all those dollars. You like things the way they are? FANTASTIC. Congratulations, even.

I tend to take the long view of things, and without criticism and developers that actually listen to it, we have disasters like 1.0 was. You may not remember it. It sure sounds like you weren't around for it...

I invite you to quote the part of any of these posts that was "disrespectful". You may not like what I have to say, and the truth sometimes hurts, but that doesn't make my posts "disrespectful".

Did I do it right?

[Codek]

If anything, now is the time to work even harder. A major MMO has an expansion looming. Other major mmos are also gaining traction, and now is a critical time for SE to prove why XIV should get all those dollars.

A little off topic but I just have to mention that attempting to compete head to head with the top dog in any industry is always a horrible business decision. You don't fight the competition when they are ramping to their peak but when they enter the lull. Why release an expansion along side theirs when you can do it once their playerbase has nothing more to look forward to.

I fail to see why this would be the time for SE to try to make a big push for getting content out. If anything, they have more then enough time to fully plan out some really nice things to come.

[Hyrist]

No, the answer isn't to just stay quiet and make excuses such as "Rome wasn't built in a day" so SE can justify slacking off. The answer is to continue to offer suggestions, draw comparisons, and hope that someday the *right* dev will see the thread and that light bulb will go off in his\her head.

Or the light-bulb can come on in yours and you can realize that perhaps you are not the target audience SE is hoping to reach. And that those of differing tastes are not lesser people or gamers for it.


Square Enix, nor FFXIV's development team in particular, are under no pressure to 'see the light' in this particular case. And it's a thinly veiled insult to believe that one set of design path is the 'correct' one, rather than stating one's own preferences and leaving it at that.

This by no means is encouraging you to be silent, but instead to be more respectful when you're providing feedback, and attempt to see matters beyond your own viewpoint.

Providing ideas that appeal to you is fine, but be aware when those ideas may not fit within the vision of the game itself or the ideals of other groups of its players. There are plenty if people that have provide concise feedback as to why such level of depth has, thus far, been discouraged by the development (And they have not hidden that fact, they have repeatedly explained their philosophy of a simplified combat system that makes more use of existing skills rather than flooding a skill menu.).

There comes a point when you have to realize that perhaps you have a impasse of design philosophy, and then decide whether or not that impasse is going to prevent you from remaining a subscriber.

Asking for this level of complexity in a game that values a minimalist approach, on my observations, seems to be clashing that impasse intentionally.

I understand your and his points. But even in XI's subjob system, you usually have a few options, even if it's just 2~5, and more if you solo. Rather than everything being ironclad, and the only thing that really changes from fight to fight is when you strafe left or right to dodge mechanics while doing your rotation. Yes, some builds will be shunned, but even a couple options and configurations is better than none, IMO. And if it's something you can tinker with while solo or in the open world for nontraditional builds, that's something I think will be pretty neat as well.

I understand this concern. However, for me I feel that such aspects at this, infant level juncture of the game (Do not count FFXIV 1.0 as a point in history, the game was reconstructed neigh completely only barely reusing assets that saved them development time. Most of the game was scrapped or re-coded.) only a year in, I can't expect that depth to truly grow so quickly. ToAU was multiple years into FFXI's development.

My desire as far as increase of depth comes from the Job system template we have in Arcanist. Skills we have are utilized in differing methods providing new directions for existing mechanics. Pretty clearly I can see portions of the Lancer Class that could be used, with some tweaks, to construct Lancer into a Tank, which I would love to be able to do.

As far as - off beat builds. FFXIV does what FFXI dared not to - allow skills to be exchangeable with classes on a singular basis. Nothing but peer pressure prevents a player from making an off-beat build by cherry picking class skills available to them at the sacrifice of Job Mechanics. Gearing would be the biggest difficulty forseeable in that aspect, and even then, there are a wider array of options than players notice.

The vast majority elect to overlook these methods for the very reason why a varied system would be a poor idea - efficiency. So the design challenge is creating a system that allows viable variance in classes. And if the developers follow through with their Class/Job idea, with a bit of refinement, I can see it working out quite well.

[Risvertasashi]

Asking for this level of complexity in a game that values a minimalist approach, on my observations, seems to be clashing that impasse intentionally.

Sadly, I do fear you're right. I really love FFXIV for a lot of things but the minimalism everywhere isn't one of them. However, I don't think it's necessarily as contradictory as you think. I think both audiences can reasonably be served. Even XI had its simple and straightforward jobs.

But that is why I wanted to open this discussion. If SE feels there's an audience to be served, and that they can do it without breaking their carefully designed setup... maybe, just maybe, we'll see something. I do think it's worthwhile to open these threads and have these discussions, even if SE eventually comes back with a firm "no." I'm sorry if you feel it's a waste of time.

[Hyrist]

Sadly, I do fear you're right. I really love FFXIV for a lot of things but the minimalism everywhere isn't one of them. However, I don't think it's necessarily as contradictory as you think. I think both audiences can reasonably be served. Even XI had its simple and straightforward jobs.

But that is why I wanted to open this discussion. If SE feels there's an audience to be served, and that they can do it without breaking their carefully designed setup... maybe, just maybe, we'll see something. I do think it's worthwhile to open these threads and have these discussions, even if SE eventually comes back with a firm "no." I'm sorry if you feel it's a waste of time.

A small note, I gave a more personalized reply in a previous edit, if you care to read it.

It's not so much of a waste of time as a bad utilization of intent. There is a certain bounds we have to realize we can work within, and move on from there. In this case I would say keep in mind, with the complexity you desire, we are still dealing with a large number of players who play primarily on a gamepad. I count myself among them. If we were to design complexity, we have to keep it at least simple enough, so that they can properly utilize it.

I fear that people are so consumed with thinking outside the box, that they're leaving the very stadium of thought that the game was designed within. If we were to make our adjustments more gradual or streamlined, suggestions would have a much higher chance of being heard and replied to, and then the depth, or at least a fair compromise of said desired depth, could be reached in a different, but still satisfactory manner.

[DefendPopPunk]

I fear that people are so consumed with thinking outside the box, that they're leaving the very stadium of thought that the game was designed within.

The stadium of thought that this game was designed from would have to be microscopic if you're saying that added complexity in the form of pet jobs such as pup would lead you to believe it's too much. It's funny that you mention a system too complex being written for gamepad users, yet the OP's example was from a game that had primarily PS2 users that apparently did fine with a complex pet job system using gamepads. I get that some requests seem outrageous when they seem to deviate far from what we've come to expect of FFXIV, but without those requests and really seeing what the devs can really do with them, how will we know just how far this game can go in terms of complex and rewarding gameplay? Yes, we all differ in our perception of complex and rewarding, but I think you can get the point.