The Monk Temple Reborn

[Lewena]

This post is meant to talk about the Monk job and only about it. For discussion about the balance of the class with respect to others, about “Oh shit, Monk sucks” and so forth, please go elsewhere! It is aimed towards new MMO players or players that strives for the end game content. It is not meant for players who have already cleared it as they already know what I am going to describe.

Please, no discussion about what job is the most difficult to play, what job is more interesting... However, a discussion about how Monk can be played with the current state of other jobs is welcome.

[NoctisUmbra]

PB>demolish>snap>dragon kick>snap>twin>B4B>Boot>IR>true>megapot STR>ToD>steel peak>demolish>HF ...flank>rearetc

Any PB opener that doesn't use the first 3 skills to get to GL3 is suboptimal. MNK has no buff that is better than a single stack of GL.

The opener listed in the OP is the best overall. You end up delaying Twin Snakes for ~2 GCDs.

If that's the problem you're looking to solve, you can go with the Demo Snap Snap DK Twin opener and continue with Boot True Demo ToD to flank, rear, etc.

[whiskeybravo]

Regarding the staggering of CDs, some will argue it is a dps loss, but over the duration of an encounter it depends on how long the fight goes and whether you'll get to use the extra IR/B4B.
Am I wrong in anyway? If so please provide reasons I'm always looking to improve.

By stagger you mean weave in during the GCD instead of popping all at once.. Not sure who has argued that saving and popping all at once is DPS gain, just about every post I've read on the subject (in these forums) suggests it is in fact a DPS loss to do that. Unless you need to save CDs for a particular burst phase, it's generally regarded as beneficial to use them as soon as they are off cool down.

[Loganlazaro]

By stagger you mean weave in during the GCD instead of popping all at once.. Not sure who has argued that saving and popping all at once is DPS gain, just about every post I've read on the subject (in these forums) suggests it is in fact a DPS loss to do that. Unless you need to save CDs for a particular burst phase, it's generally regarded as beneficial to use them as soon as they are off cool down.

Maybe stagger was the wrong term. I mean, instead of PB>Demo(B4B)>Snap>IR> etc. B4B and IR are used during PB opener which is 10 seconds.
I want to know whether waiting for PB opener (GL3/DK/twin) before popping them would get more DPS. In certain fights i.e. T6 where you can potentially get thorns at the end of your opener it'll be a dps loss but in T8 what would be better?

In my opener I delay GL3 by 1 GCD but allow full ticking of the initial demolish. I'm not sure all too much changes because in 10 seconds I have all GL3/Twin/DK.
OP opener delays twin by 2GCD my opener delays GL3 by 1, Twinsnakes is 10% DMG, GL3 is 9%Dmg/AS.

Also just got my Novus yesterday! i103 parsed at 450 dps on ACT with buttons (PS4 player parsed by FC friend. Should/can i do more?
I clip Demo and ToD as litle as possible 3 seconds or less.

[Lewena]

I am comparing your opener to the opener of the OP with a little change in it:

1. demolish>snap>dragon kick>snap>twin>Boot>true>ToD>demolish
2. demolish>snap>snap>dragon kick>twin>Boot>true>ToD>demolish

You are right, your opener is better if delaying a little bit GL3 allows one more tick of Demolish. Indeed assuming that the first Demolish ticks once more in your opener, the potencies would be

1. 40*1.05 + 150*1.23*1.1 + 180*1.23*1.1*1.1 = 460.6350
2. 180*1.23*1.1 + 150*1.32*1.15 = 418.4100

The difference is roughly 40 potency, that is the additional tick of the first demolish.

Now, if it doesn't allow this additional tick, they are equivalent.

On all the computation I am doing below, I assume a 2.5 GCD, that is you don't have any skill speed at all (which is not true of course) but allow some simplification. The difference in duration between both opener would be 2.5*0.05 = 0.125 seconds. I am quite surprised that this difference would allow for one more tick, it is a very tight timing and will depend on your skill speed. The duration between the first demolish and the second one is (assuming the 2.5 s GCD):

1. GCD * (1+0.95+0.9+0.9+0.85+0.85+0.85+0.85) = 7.15 * GCD = 17.875
2. GCD * (1+0.95+0.9+0.85+0.85+0.85+0.85+0.85) = 7.1 * GCD = 17.75

So, the trade-off is the following:

1. gain ~40 potency over a period of 18 seconds, that is 2.2 pot/s that is a roughly 2%
2. taking the risk of not being able to perform 5 strikes during PB which would results in a bigger loss I think

Personnaly, I am not fond of this trade-off but it is up to you.

Edit: after a quick computation of duration (2.5 * (1+0.95+0.9+0.9) = 9.375 seconds), it may be not be as much risk as it seems. Can someone try this opener and see if there is a risk of missing the 5th strike PB and if it really allows for one more tick of demolish? Please, post you skill speed if you are doing this.

[Loganlazaro]

Just checked my Skill speed, doable at 392.

[Lewena]

Before I forget XD, wondering about an opener with Fracture:

Demolish > Snap > Snap > DK > Twin (PB off) > ToD > Fracture > Boot > True > Demolish > DK > Twin > Snap ...

Ensures construction of GL3 first => less risk
Ensures full duration of first demolish
Use Fracture to increase a little the overall potency
Of course not for 'bursty' opener (but we are not bursty right? XD) in a, let's say, 15 secondes frame.

Wondering if someone did not have already posted it somewhere.

Edit : so a little of math again!

Comparing 3 openers: the one of the current OP, the one of Logan et the one of this post. First note a difference, with the opener of OP, you need to continue with a flank combo to apply Twin buff, where for the two others, it seems preferable to continue with a rear combo as all buffs and debuff are already here and as rear combo does more damage although Boot will not auto crit. It is why, the comparison will go until 2 stances cycles are performed on the 3 openers:

1. Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Snap (BP off) > DK > Twin > ToD > Demo > Boot > True > Snap
2. Demo > Snap > DK > Snap > Twin (PB off) > ToD > Boot > True > Demo > DK > Twin > Snap
3. Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Twin (PB off) > ToD > Fracture > Boot > True > Demo > DK > Twin > Snap

Comparing TP usage and potency per inital GCD.


1/ Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Snap (BF off) > DK > Twin > ToD > Demo > Boot > True > Snap

Potency : assuming that first demo ticks 5 times (at least I know I clip the last tick with this opener)
270*1.05 + 180*1.14*1.05 + 180*1.23*1.1 + 150*1.32*1.15 + 180*1.32*1.15*1.1 + 150*1.32*1.15*1.1 + 140*1.32*1.15*1.1 + (20*1.1+250)*1.42*1.15 + (70*1.1+240)*1.42*1.15 + 225*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 190*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 180*1.42*1.15*1.1
That is 3785.6 potency in 12 GCDs: 315.5 pot/GCD.
Add now the fact that DK debuff falls. assume that it falls only for the next DK, with respect to the two other openers that does not have this problem you should substract (150*1.42*0.1*1.15)/12 = 2.0 Pot/GCD

TP : 130 + 50 + 50 + 60 + 50 + 60 + 60 +80 + 130 + 60 + 50 + 50 = 830
That is 69.2 TP/GCD

2/ Demo > Snap > DK > Snap > Twin (PB off) > ToD > Boot > True > Demo > DK > Twin > Snap

Potency : assuming full duration of first demo
310*1.05 + 180*1.14*1.05 + 150*1.23*1.1 + 180*1.23*1.1*1.1 + 140*1.32*1.15*1.1 + (20*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 250*1.42*1.15) + 150*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 190*1.42*1.15*1.1 + (70*1.1+240)*1.42*1.15 + 150*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 140*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 180*1.42*1.15*1.1
That is 3662.4 potency in 12 GCDs: 305.2 pot/GCD.
Adding a 5% critical rate on Boot, it would add (150*1.42*1.15*1.1*(0.5*0.05))/12 = 0.56 pot/GCD. At this point one would normally have at least 30% critical rate due to IR, adding (150*1.42*1.15*1.1*(0.5*0.3))/12 = 3.4 Pot/GCD.

TP: same as above 69.2 TP/GCD.

3/ Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Twin (PB off) > ToD > Fracture > Boot > True > Demo > DK > Twin > Snap

Potency: full duration of first demo
310*1.05 + 180*1.14*1.05 + 180*1.23*1.1 + 150*1.32*1.15 + 140*1.32*1.15*1.1 + (20*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 250*1.42*1.15) + 220*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 150*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 190*1.42*1.15*1.1 + (70*1.1+240)*1.42*1.15 + 150*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 140*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 180*1.42*1.15*1.1
That is 4058.0 potency in 13 GCDs: 312.2 pot/GCD.
Adding a 5% critical rate on Boot, it would add (150*1.42*1.15*1.1*(0.5*0.05))/13 = 0.52 pot/GCD. At this point one would normally have at least 30% critical rate due to IR, adding (150*1.42*1.15*1.1*(0.5*0.3))/13 = 3.1 Pot/GCD.

TP : 830 + 80 = 910, that is 70 TP/GCD

Conclusion: it seems to me that the opener proposed in this post is (a little bit) better with the cost of 20-30 more TP. Question: when to use the CD? Is it worth it?

/discuss
/test

[Loganlazaro]

Just to clarify my opener is the 2nd one :x also I should be applying that ToD as you did there to get it ticking earlier, silly me =/

So comparing my opener 2 to opener 1, 123.2 potency is lost just by not having GL3 by 1 GCD. Is the potency of the 4th snap alone greater than not having twin snakes up for 2 GCDs?

Fracture won't fit in before demolish is refreshed. Just tested on a dummy you can only fit ToD and you absolutely must mash to get that demolish to refresh GL3.
At least 1 thing I have against Opener 3 is in fights such as T6/T7 as you finish PB theres a chance you will have thorns/voice and refreshing that demolish will be risky.

So.. subtracting fracture 4058 - 220*1.42*1.15*1.1=3662.814 or 305.23 PoT/GCD. Essentially the same as my opener with a chance to lose GL3.

Please check my stuff its 2 am, and I'm half asleep.

[NoctisUmbra]

It's unreliable to count on any potential extra ticks of Demolish unless you make roughly a GCD of a difference. Since dot ticks are on server time, it will tick anywhere within each 3 sec window of the dot duration.

The recent opener I've been toying with, that's a tad more risky than my original, is:

Demo Snap Snap DK Twin Boot True Demo ToD flank rear etc

I pull up the Demo if there's any delay leading up to it due to mechanics, but otherwise I use ToD first and then Demo like before, which is rather tight timing.

[Lewena]

Silly me also. Proposed opener 3 will not work: two mush time between last Snap et second Demolish. Ain't good posting at work XD. However, you have a point with this last tick of the first Demolish.

By the way, the difference between your opener and the OP opener is that you go with a rear combo instead of a flank combo. As explained a few post above, until the second Demolish your opener does more damage since rear combo does more damage. However continuing to the next combo (you are at flank, OP opener is at rear), OP opener does more damage (due to auto crit of Boot). Atm, I prefer the OP opener.

Now let's see if this opener is better (compared to OP opener), trying to have this last tick of the first Demolish :

1. Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Snap > DK > Twin > ToD > Demolish > Boot > True > Snap > DK > Twin > Snap
   • Potency: 3785.6 + 150*1.42*1.15 + 140*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 180*1.42*1.15*1.1 = 4605.4 in 15 GCDs => 307.0 Pot/GCD
   • TP: 830 + 60 + 60 + 50 = 1000 => 66.7 TP/GCD
2. Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Snap > DK > Twin > ToD > Fracture > Demolish > Boot > True > Snap > DK > Twin > Snap
   • Potency: 3785.6 + 40*1.05 + 220*1.42*1.15*1.1 -180*1.42*1.15*0.1 + 150*1.42*1.15 + 140*1.42*1.15*1.1 + 180*1.42*1.15*1.1 = 5013.2 in 16 GCDs => 313.3 Pot/GCD
   • TP: 1000+80 = 1080 => 67.5 TP/GCD

Now your previous comment holds: depends on mechanics. And also depends on if you are really short or not on TP.

I will add this on the OP (well as soon as I can test it ).

Edit: also, as explained in the OP, there will not be much of a difference in the long run between those opener. This is for min maxing stuff.