DPS check for turn 8?

[Arok]

dunno how you can have probs with your gear healing it princess i end up with 2k mp without having any ballad the whole fight. Using shroud only when the dk is up ? Never heard something more weird then this its just dumb XD.

[Princess_Rosilee]

dunno how you can have probs with your gear healing it princess i end up with 2k mp without having any ballad the whole fight. Using shroud only when the dk is up ? Never heard something more weird then this its just dumb XD.

Again, our other healer spends 70% of the fight in cleric stance, and I'm not an idle healer. That and I play WHM my way. Good for you that you can do it without ballad *shrugs*

[Askarya]

I have two bards in my group, therefore our way isn't inefficient as one is supporting the group while the other supports me.

It'd still be more efficient if one plays foes while the other supports the group.

We one-shot it pretty much every time, and prior to gear we were meeting the dps check just fine.

Yes, YOU did it. but that's still no reason to think that every other group can do this too. And as we all know from OP they're already struggling with the dps check so why would you give them a less efficient strategy?

Like i said before, just because you made it that way doesn't mean that it'll work for everyone else too. And chances are higher that they would make it with a more efficient strategy.

Saying that it's a fight where healers don't need ballad is a gross-overstatement as well as funny considering the amount of healers i know who do and even forum post.

I said they don't need ballad if they heal EFFICIENTLY, if they don't do that ofc they will need ballad. But it is a choice they do, they choose to not heal efficiently and pass the ball to do something to other people of the group instead of doing it themselves.

[Princess_Rosilee]

ISNIP

1. You're basing your assumption off of the fact the rest of the group needs support. We only have 1 monk, who doesn't need tp song and foes would be required if we had a caster. AGAIN -IT DEPENDS ON YOUR GROUP MAKE-UP AND HOW YOU PLAY.
2. You're assuming it's only possible by my group. Think on a much larger scale, if we can do it, so can they. That's the reason I offer up my strategy. There are a dozen party make up and ways you can do t8. I simply offered mine. The fact you find it inefficient or don't like it is YOUR PROBLEM.
3. Again, assuming I heal inefficiently because I require ballad, or that half the game does for that matter based on the fact your group doesn't is absurd. It doesn't mean we're healing inefficiently because we as healers require ballad. I'm not an idle healer, I throw up dots/ dps when I'm not spamming the tank, I keep up regen, I like to keep my party topped off in case of unforeseen damage, people die. Etc.

[Askarya]

1.

You said before you have 2 BRD, now i also know that you have 1 MNK which means you have either atleast 1 caster or 1 DRG as fourth dps. If it's a caster my foes argument is valid, but you denied that so i'll just assume you have a DRG. Also you said before that one of the BRD supports the group. how? if you don't need foes and the MNK doesn't need tp song? But either way, a MNK who doesn't need tp song in t8 is definitly managing his tp so he won't need it, which results in less dps. Less dps - not as efficient.

2.

And yes there are countless different strageties out there for t8. Still an efficient strategy isn't determined by my own opinion, it's determined by simple and plain maths! If you don't meet a dps check you try to push your dps harder, how can you achieve that? You either do it over and over aain until you can play it perfectly with your eyes closed and hope that this will give you enough dps to meet the requirement, or you try to figure out a more efficient Strategy. If you go with the second why not just go with the most efficient strategy dps-wise which leaves some room for mistakes? Ofc you need to adjust the Strategy to your group - example: If your healer needs ballad for whatever reason (be it gear, not knowing how to heal that turn perfectly, personal preferences). But those adjustments will always cost you some of that efficiency.

So if someone asks you after a strategy or tips you should always give him the most efficient way and tell him that he needs to adjust it to the needs of his own group. If you give him your already adjusted strategy he will even more adjust it for his group in in about 80% of the cases lose even more efficiency. Which is bad if they're already struggling with it.

3.

Like i said before, efficiency isn't determined by my opinion, it's really simple math. And i expect healers to put up dots in their downtime except it's really a fight where they need to manage their mp for whatever reason.

Keeping you group up is fine, but many healers try to get their group topped off asap what is a horrible mistake. T8 is so scripted there is nearly no unexpected damage (exceptions are bad homing missile handling, mines and MAYBE someone gets a hit from a dread but how often does this happen? 1/100 trys?) but if you know those aren't coming in the next 20 sec why would you waste mp to top your group of asap? It's really just a waste of mp, nothing more.

[Princess_Rosilee]

Snip

1. I was merely pointing out you are making an assumption based on something you don't have any knowledge about. When I said one bard supports the group I meant if needed, not that he actively has something up at all times.Our monk doesn't have any dps issues.

2. I don't agree with this in the least, simply because determining whether a strategy is most efficient is based up to the individual regardless of numbers.They don't have to follow it or do any adjustments,it's a choice.

3. Efficiency is determined by opinion not numbers. Me needing ballad for t8 is not a telling of my efficiency as a healer. I like to keep my party topped off because there are times when you can either do enough dps to skip that one dread or you can't, and then it comes down to. "Oh I wasn't expecting to have to heal the tank aggressively right now, or phew I saved it." I prefer to know if we do by chance get a bad homing missile or hit randomly my party won't die.

[Eriatarka12]

As someone who clears t9 on main (SCH, but did 6-9 progression and first 2 clears of t9 on WHM) and alt (BRD) I feel like I have to throw my two cents into this ballad discussion.

When playing WHM, I only used Shroud on Dreads because I was afraid of pulling hate. I needed ballad while learning but never on an actual kill (the one exception being when 3 people died at once and I had to rez). Even if I do need it, I feel bad asking for it because I know I'm killing my BRD's damage. I felt like it was my responsibility to learn to manage my mp/ether timing better to make it so my job is done but I never need to ask the BRD for ballad. As someone who plays BRD on all these fights I know how TP starved a BRD who only does towers can get, and if anything you should be letting them use that MP so they can paeon themselves and your melee to push numbers a bit more.

You might say to yourself, "Meh, we're making the DPS check in time, so who cares if I'm wasting a bit of MP. Obviously he can't be doing that little if we aren't failing the check..." Which is fine, I suppose. Either way the fight is still won and loot is still obtained. But I always look at situations like White Mages solo healing Turn 9 phase 1 and 2 and go, "They can do it, why not me?"Then I play with my timings, skills and other factors until I get it down. I did this in Turn 8 too, I more or less worked into solo healing it while my SCH stood full DPS in cleric's stance. This is all while saving Shroud only for dreads as well.

I feel like that attitude of "Oh we made the check anyway who cares" is putting yourself in a rut because you end up not wanting to improve or get better, or hell just seeing if you can do something without needing to rely on something like ballad. I think it's a great skill and independence building exercise.

I also disagree with the fact that SMN needs ballad in t8. I've played SMN multiple times on that fight when helping out other groups in my FC who needed a SMN sub, and I've done it completely fine without ballad. As long as you are refreshing dots individually and not clipping everything all at once (which takes a lot more attention but saves a ton of MP) and not using Miasma 2 irresponsibly (meaning only using it when you have contagion) your MP is just fine. However, I throw an energy drain into my starting rotation along with the first 2 buffed festers because I like to get the aetherflow cooldown going ASAP, rather than waiting for a higher potency fester with no buffs. If I crit the energy drain it's not a DPS loss at all because of my buffs when the fight starts and I get MP back.

[Askarya]

1.

Not having issuesor being able to kill something doesn't mean that it's efficient or that the person does the best he/she could do.

2.

Correct it's a choice. Like i said before you can choose between playing the most efficient way or you make adjustements and sacrifice some of the efficiency. Because if you boil it down every other strategy was at some point part of the most efficient Strategy. Your opinion on an strategy doesn't determine the efficiency of it, it only determines which strategy suits your group the best and that's a difference.

3.

If you have sometimes trouble skipping the dread than it just proofs that your strategy isn't as efficient (from your bragging how easy your groups kills t8 everytime easily and that you have no problems i assume that your average group ilvl is 100+). Because with that ilvl you should be able to always skip the dread especially if your Sch is dpsing all the time and you're throwing some dots in while you have downtime like you said before. And like i also said before there is no possible random hit except for homing which will hit the group. Maybe a mine but that shouldn't hit more than 1 or 2 additional people and they should survive even if you don't instantly top them off :P
But regardless of that, if it works for you group then it's fine. But you shouldn't assume that your adjusted strategy is that good for other groups, especially when it's a group that still sturggles with the dps check. Rather try to give them a more neutral strategy without too many adjustements. that gives them room to find there one "best" strategy.

I also disagree with the fact that SMN needs ballad in t8.

Not quiet sure about this one since i couldn't test it often enough, but a SMN should profit more from 1 more foes and using energy drain than from a ballad.

[Princess_Rosilee]

sNIP

Yeah, I feel like perhaps I'm explaining this the wrong way. I don't require ballad for the entire fight. At the beginning it was rougher for me but now it's only like the second allagan field. Sometimes if someone dies or something it's more. I just don't want it to be seen as you're inefficient when you need it, because honestly it's one of those fights where healing is tricky.

[Princess_Rosilee]

Snip.

1. I never said it was. I said it's efficient for US. And that you trying to say someone isn't putting in their best effort without knowing the situation is absurd.
2. I don't see how something can be more efficient over something else if it's working as it should. I don't think my method is any less efficient than another method if it's working as intended. It's just a difference in choice. I don't get what you're trying to prove.
3.I never said we were having trouble skipping dreads. Nor am I bragging. If a dps dies for whatever reason or we need to sing a ballad or just whatever comes up and we can't skip the dread for that reason (when we're normally accustomed to it) is something I like to be prepared for. I rather know if ANYTHING HAPPENS my group won't wipe. That's MY mentality as a healer. It's not wrong or inefficient as it works out just fine. Which at the end of th eday is all that matters to me.