Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Clavaat]

Because elitists hate the notion that you can do something you wouldn't be able to do otherwise because unlike the people that cleared it you didn't "work" for it. Then again the notion is hilarious since they use videos and guides for everything. Yet the team is catering more and more to the hardcore elitist crowd than they are the rest of their player base and Final Fantasy does kind of have a reputation for content but very grinding and sadistic on their design approach.

Sorry but this is a bit extreme to me. I think we need to take a step back and think here.

For starters, as I've said in other posts, I don't give up on members of a Party. I know Player X and Player Y can dodge/adapt to nearly anything, but the challenge comes from leading everyone to follow the same thing. That's been a common argument throughout this thread.

With good leadership, I feel a group can complete anything. Player Z has trouble dodging Divebombs. Instead of blaming, pointing fingers for losses, etc, a good leader would recognize this and work with the player on an individual level to get through it. Like anything else in life, with enough practice, anyone can become good at something.

Is that ideal hardcore elitist? Maybe...I don't know. If you get to T9 using a methodology like that, I'd like to think that no, it isn't. And I believe you could get through most, if not all content that way, despite unforgiving mechanics.

Overgearing content runs the risk of none of that mattering. What I described, I supposed can be construed as "work", but honestly, I find it fun and engaging to know your strengths and weaknesses, and work together to figure them out as opposed to giving up.

Variety in content is appreciated; having content that is more simple tank and spank, like pretty much everything in FFXI, is fine. I don't think it should be rewarded as highly as something that took coordination and adaptation (even if you know the fight inside and out, things can happen).

I say none of this to attack you or anything, but I think if you take it from a different perspective, you'd feel better about the situation at hand. And maybe I'm weird for thinking this way. But at the end of the day, I'm enjoying myself with what is given to me currently in terms of the game.

[Gormogon]

Is that ideal hardcore elitist?

From my perspective it is. Since I experienced it first hand in WoW the moment raiding required more than half the group to do the perfect dance. When it took up to 10-25% of the group to carry the rest it was never horrible since players could go months on attempts and keep it lighthearted and that was the case up until the end of WotLK for the exception of a couple of raids. Once Cataclysm came around and when doing fights that required 60% of the group to pull their weight it turn that lighthearted atmosphere into a very toxic environment with constant drama.

As far as FFXIV goes from 2.0 to 2.2 I've experience that growth in toxicity and drama. I rarely ever see 5 wipes without drama. All it takes is for and elitist to see 1 bad thing no matter how minor and I already see them giving their condescending 2 cents even during the middle of a fight.

Overgearing content runs the risk of none of that mattering. What I described, I supposed can be construed as "work", but honestly, I find it fun and engaging to know your strengths and weaknesses, and work together to figure them out as opposed to giving up.

That is where the issue lies in general.

So what if content becomes easier over time through acquiring better gear? It's not like the hardcore elitists are going no I don't need it and they stash it on their retainers until the next coil is released.

To me the overall circumstance just reeks of hypocrisy, yet whatever. Why not compromise and seek to have separate alternatives that appeases the hardcore and/or eltists, the mainstream, and the casuals, over having this constant drama?

[Clavaat]

To me the overall circumstance just reeks of hypocrisy, yet whatever. Why not compromise and seek to have separate alternatives that appeases the hardcore and/or eltists, the mainstream, and the casuals, over having this constant drama?

That was the point I was trying to make, though. If anyone is able to do it, albeit at different times than others, then isn't that appeasing everyone? I'm not arguing that over time, content becoming easier due to better gear is a bad thing. But the timing of releasing this content is important. I think it would nullify the experience of teambuilding and leadership if content were able to simply be out-geared when it's released, or shortly afterward. But the way it is now, I am satisfied with, in that regard. Titan HM used to be one of the biggest roadblocks, now no one even talks about him, because gear and echo have made it a fairly easy fight, even if a few members die.

I never played WoW. The only MMO I played seriously was FFXI, so I guess I have a bit of a different perspective when it comes to what this content is. This stuff is kind of new to me. I know within my static, we have our method of doing content, and in general it has worked to keep everyone happy, even if we're not clearing the highest possible content. Maybe down the road it will end in conflict, I have no way of actually knowing that, but for at least the past 6 months, barring a few bumps in the road, I've had a overall positive experience.

[Gormogon]

That was the point I was trying to make, though. If anyone is able to do it, albeit at different times than others, then isn't that appeasing everyone?...But the way it is now, I am satisfied with, in that regard. Titan HM used to be one of the biggest roadblocks, now no one even talks about him, because gear and echo have made it a fairly easy fight, even if a few members die.

If there was content outside of coil.

Yet currently the answer will be no, since they aren't progressing and there's no content outside of coil equally rewarding. Having to wait 2-3 months if not another 2-3 on top of that to progress is in no way a motivational builder.

Those that aren't satisfied may not stick around for it to finally be able to clear the content and they wont really be moving on and keep progressing steadily if coil becomes an equivalent roadblock.

I never played WoW. The only MMO I played seriously was FFXI, so I guess I have a bit of a different perspective when it comes to what this content is. This stuff is kind of new to me. I know within my static, we have our method of doing content, and in general it has worked to keep everyone happy, even if we're not clearing the highest possible content. Maybe down the road it will end in conflict, I have no way of actually knowing that, but for at least the past 6 months, barring a few bumps in the road, I've had a overall positive experience.

I'm gonna keep it vague to word it as nicely as possible. Keep an open mind since there's more situations that happen outside your static in and out of your own server.

You just asked for three tiers of content that all appeal to "progression", including a mode that basically hands out free gear. Well, soldiery tomes already fill that purpose.

Are you seriously suggesting that FFXIV encounters should be tuned so that 2 people can carry the other 6?

It already does, and none of the "hardcores" are complaining about that. It's the casuals who are impatiently complaining that a couple fights aren't already an auto-win (and may never be. What a horrible situation if some fights still make you dodge!).

This is still an aside to the topic of Second Coil being boring to some people, however. I don't see how taking effort and strategy completely out of the fight makes it less boring, though.

1.) Keep jumping to that conclusion that people that would desire a Coil 2 Ez mode should be as easy if not easier than HM dungeons. Being less rewarding for the sake of being less rewarding is sure gonna motivate casuals to step up their game.
2.) No but continue to spin those words. I'm referring to leniency and change of atmosphere when you start forcing more and more players to play at a high standard.
3.) If you want to neglect what's already been pointed out for the sake of pointing fingers at figures so be it. I ain't forcing you to be empathetic.
4.) Superiority complex much?

[Clavaat]

If there was content outside of coil.

Yet currently the answer will be no, since they aren't progressing and there's no content outside of coil equally rewarding. Having to wait 2-3 months if not another 2-3 on top of that to progress is in no way a motivational builder.

Those that aren't satisfied may not stick around for it to finally be able to clear the content and they wont really be moving on and keep progressing steadily if coil becomes an equivalent roadblock.

I'm on the fence about this point. I think the direction the game is going will cater to what you are asking for, if you consider the split of the Relic Storyline, EX primals, and BC endgame content. All 3 are fairly different in how they are handled, but they give the player the option to work with their playstyle.

Also, would having mechanics-driven gameplay not be an equalizer when it comes to progression in that sense? Assuming what I said is possible/true (that is, everyone can clear content given time/practice regardless of having the "best" gear), then isn't that still progress? You don't need Allagan gear to clear T5. You don't need an EX Primal weapon to clear T5. If you beat it eventually, that's still progress, whether or not your gear is actually improving.

I'm gonna keep it vague to word it as nicely as possible. Keep an open mind since there's more situations that happen outside your static in and out of your own server.

I wasn't trying to imply that I wasn't aware of that. I run an LS and FC, and we run things outside of the static as well, including with pick ups. The situation has always been the same or similar to what I've experienced there: as long as we have good leadership and communication, everything falls into place eventually. There are more good people out there than you'd like to think, honestly.

[Gormogon]

snip

Yet you do require 7 other people to be decently geared, know their rotations inside and out, know the fight, and above all be able to react.

Providing depth is possible without the need of every single ability in the bosses rotation capable of wiping the entire group.

Never said there wasn't good people. Yet I am taking into consideration that those people that aren't progressing is in no way fair to expect for them to stick around 3-6 months just so that they can progress and then be blocked again from content in a 3-6 month period and constantly repeating itself and potentially getting worse, which it kind of has.

[Clavaat]

Yet I am taking into consideration that those people that aren't progressing is in no way fair to expect for them to stick around 3-6 months just so that they can progress and then be blocked again from content in a 3-6 month period and constantly repeating itself and potentially getting worse, which it kind of has.

I'm sorry, I just don't see enough evidence to support that. I see people here all the time saying this, including this thread, yet they are still playing. I still see lots of people on every day, on my server at least. They always seem excited to try and learn new content, bitch about some pieces of content, then move on. I've been doing DR almost daily since its launch, and even when mistakes are made, people have been ok about it, even if they've done it a million times.

And who knows, maybe I'm being naive. I'm just going by what I am seeing. As far as the OP is concerned, I've broken it down as to what I agree and don't agree with before, and I just can't support such drastic ideas. I am happy with the way things are regarding difficulty, and, as far as I can see, the grand majority of people are as well.

[Amberion]

Never said there wasn't good people. Yet I am taking into consideration that those people that aren't progressing is in no way fair to expect for them to stick around 3-6 months just so that they can progress and then be blocked again from content in a 3-6 month period and constantly repeating itself and potentially getting worse, which it kind of has.

Isn't that time period the same for all tiers players?

Those on COIL2 have to wait 6 months until the next turns are released.
Those on COIL1 have to wait 6 months until COIL2 is made easier.
And so on.

[Melithea]

2.) No but continue to spin those words. I'm referring to leniency and change of atmosphere when you start forcing more and more players to play at a high standard.

I'm not spinning anything, this is literally what you just said. 25% of the group carries the rest = good; 60% of the group required to work = toxic. To me these numbers not only reek of being arbitrary and pertaining only to content for 40+ players, it also makes it look like you want to turn content into a free ride, whether that is your intention or not.

4.) Superiority complex much?

Lol. Sorry for trying to get you back on topic!

There are two separate conversations here. 1. "Purely mechanics-driven battles aren't fun for anybody" and 2. "Content that requires high levels of execution is too hard for most players." It's possible to have a purely mechanics driven battle that is so easy that everyone can beat it, but this would not solve one of the overarching problems. It's also possible to remove all mechanics and make a battle a gear faceroll, but this also does not solve one of the overarching problems. Your suggestions aren't doing many favors for EITHER side, and certainly not both.

Twintania is already much easier with the availability of i100/110 gear and the echo buff. She's just not "fun" to some people because they still have to respond to a number of unforgiving mechanics. Now, should 100% of players be able to kill Twin today? Some posters in this thread seem to think yes. Yoshi says no. If they wanted 100% of players to have downed Twintania today, they would have continued to increase the echo buff, which has been proven effective in increasing the number of players who kill her. So basically, what you're asking for here already exists. You just want it to happen faster than the Producer does.

Let me ask you this. Can you imagine people losing to Twin with a 500% echo buff? They'd pretty much have to be trying to lose, right? Now, would you want that much power bloat to be in the game already?

Instead of looking for ways to allow mainstream players to clear all content the day it's released, maybe it would be better to look for ways to make fights more fun for mainstream players without trivializing player skill and/or making victory RNG dependent, within the confines of the current battle system.

[Melithea]

Brutal should appeal to the hardcore elitist
Normal coil should appeal to the progressive mainstream player.
Easy mode coil should appeal to the casual and progressive player.

You just asked for three tiers of content that all appeal to "progression", including a mode that basically hands out free gear. Well, soldiery tomes already fill that purpose.

When it took up to 10-25% of the group to carry the rest it was never horrible

Are you seriously suggesting that FFXIV encounters should be tuned so that 2 people can carry the other 6?

So what if content becomes easier over time through acquiring better gear?

It already does, and none of the "hardcores" are complaining about that. It's the casuals who are impatiently complaining that a couple fights aren't already an auto-win (and may never be. What a horrible situation if some fights still make you dodge!).

This is still an aside to the topic of Second Coil being boring to some people, however. I don't see how taking effort and strategy completely out of the fight makes it less boring, though.