Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Litre]

you are assuming that there are people who literally are incapable of completing content. And I can't agree with that, ever.

Yoshi has said about 5% of players have even cleared T5, even if it's 6-7 now, who knows how many have tried and given up or are still stuck on even older content such as Primal EXs etc... I'm not saying these players are mentally incapable of completing the content, I'm saying they don't have either the time, dedication or motivation to complete some of the content, the way it is as released.


But to that you say:

If you don't have time for practice and learning, what do you have time for? As someone else pointed out, I'm probably just being overly-whimsical, but I think in regard to this game, it works.

The whole game and MMOs are moving towards the direction of catering to players who don't have "as much" time for practicing, many of us are seeing these players leave, they are frustrated because they only have 1-2 hours to play a day and all they do is hit the wall that is Titan EX or whatever.

In regards to the game, it's not working, maybe it's less apparent on your server, I don't know - or you have "sample bias" meaning you're in a good FC or LS with other skilled players who enjoy the game as it is. I used to play more, but as work picked up I've joined more casual LSes, and am seeing many players leave for other games, so are many others, that's why I'm so adamant about these issues.

I just hate hearing elitists, say "this game is easier, just get better, practice, find a static", they are completely oblivious to other peoples' circumstances. It's frustrating for them, not fun, and they have no motivation because after they beat it, there's just more frustration waiting for them. But Yoshi put the main storyline content behind this difficulty wall, so they are forced into it. We realize they can only make content so fast, given their resources, so why not re-purpose existing older content so it's within reach of casual players? Echo was a start, but it was a lazy nerf, it doesn't address a lot, there's a lot more balancing they could be doing there.

Though they are on a good track, I really like the sightseeing log and such, gives them more casual things to tide them over.

[Clavaat]

The whole game and MMOs are moving towards the direction of catering to players who don't have "as much" time for practicing, many of us are seeing these players leave, they are frustrated because they only have 1-2 hours to play a day and all they do is hit the wall that is Titan EX or whatever.

I can understand that, to a point. However, I feel like these players have a problem with pacing themselves, and being realistic with their goals. For example, I know I come home and maybe have 5 hours to play before I need to go to bed. Life happens, and I know I have to do laundry one day, cook another, etc. So let's say the time goes down to 2 hours. Being aware that Titan EX is a difficult challenge, I know that I probably would be trying the rest of my time to get it down. Do I want to use that time for practice, or try something else, and wait for a day when I have more time to sit and really get it down? You have to take some personal responsibility into mind into what will realistically happen during your playtime.

In regards to the game, it's not working, maybe it's less apparent on your server, I don't know - or you have "sample bias" meaning you're in a good FC or LS with other skilled players who enjoy the game as it is. I used to play more, but as work picked up I've joined more casual LSes, and am seeing many players leave for other games, so are many others, that's why I'm so adamant about these issues.

That's very possible. Pretty much everyone I am involved with is generally satisfied with the pacing of the game, be they "casual" or "hardcore" (mind you, I really hate these terms, because they are too black and white). I can see it from your point of view though. Early on in my FC/LS lifespan I had a lot of issues keeping players interested and active. However, it has gotten much better, as I chose to look for people who I knew would keep playing. This included newer players, who I helped get caught up to speed. I would sum it up to growing pains; as the game and community grows and solidifies, the experience will be more positive overall. Many people joined early and quit, and I can't necessarily blame the reasons you have provided for this to be case. I know it's normally scoffed at, but I think we'll really just have to see after the first expansion what people are still thinking. Maybe a lot of players would come back, regardless of drastic changes in the difficulty curve. Maybe they won't.

Either way, I don't want you to take this disagreement as disrespect on my part. I respect your opinion and the time you've taken to flesh it out, along with the original OP. Judging by the amount of interest this thread has garnered (and how few people actually seem to agree with me), it's very possible you're right and I'm wrong here (though, again, that's very black and white). I'd like to think I'd support this game either direction it goes in the future, simply because I've made a lot of friends and am still having a lot of fun.

[Gormogon]

snip

I would like to add to that. I can have all the time in the world, but I'm not gonna give up, abandon, seclude myself, and/or replace the people I play with just to join a group capable of doing and gaining the best "digital" loot the game has to offer because it isn't possible with the people I do play with. I did it in WoW and by the end of the month I realized that it was not worth it.

Personally I would rather use that time I have enjoying it with the people I play with regardless of their skill level and if I have so much extra time when they are not around then I'll use it elsewhere such as playing another game on my PC, my handhelds, or on my consoles until the people I play with want to content. Especially when MMO's end-game content is secluded to a number of players and lockouts.

Yet the way I handle my downtime is not the same for other players. Clavaat's expectations, as well as others here in this thread, of what players should do just to experience end-game is an unrealistic one when it comes to what the majority will actually do. Players "can" potentially do it but you "can" expect just as many hardcore elitist to downgrade their gear and remove the echo buff as a group to keep content hard for them. The norm reaction has been present since the very day MMO's were accessible and I too have taken that approach before if not I would still be playing Ragnarok Online.

During downtime players would rather take their group of friends and seek out another experience since they have been blocked from experiencing content or can't experience content anymore until the following week. In the case of FFXIV ARR and the old FC I was in players would log off to play LoL, Smite, Diablo 3, check out other MMO's such as TESO, Black Desert, and enjoy Wildstar to the point that they switched over since Coil was roadblock and the 2-3 month wait for major patches and the content that it offer was not appealing to them.

I know some people will want to believe that it is impossible to please everyone. Sure you wont appeal to 100% yet that shouldn't mean that one should give up trying. A consistent schedule that delivers equally rich and diverse content that is appealing to as many players as possible is better than a schedule that only appeals to a specific demograph and tries to slowly branch out to the rest with no rewards and goals.

[Melithea]

Ok sure, the main flaw with this post's reasoning is that it ignores TIME

I haven't ignored time. I brought it up in a different post on page 72.

Now, should 100% of players be able to kill Twin today? Some posters in this thread seem to think yes. Yoshi says no. If they wanted 100% of players to have downed Twintania today, they would have continued to increase the echo buff, which has been proven effective in increasing the number of players who kill her. So basically, what you're asking for here already exists. You just want it to happen faster than the Producer does.

Not completely true, the OP points to many mechanics, we are using Titan EX landslide and Twintania divebombs to point out that insta-kill mechanics negate any ease introduced by overgearing content.

It's indisputable that Titan EX and Twintania are both easier now than they were on release, even without changing their hardest mechanics. The easing hasn't been negated, it just hasn't been applied 100%, either.

Here's the problem, it's not balanced in this way, the mechanics are the primary determining factor in victory, and always will be, years after content release unless they fix insta-kill, miss a divebomb, you wipe your party, end of story.

This isn't even true today. I've seen lots of people screw up divebombs without wiping the party. I've also seen the OT get landslided off the platform during heart phase, before the first adds and the party still won on that attempt. Stop pretending things are insurmountable obstacles just because they can't be ignored with a Cure II.

So I'll tell you what's not fun, being elitist and subjecting casual players to the same arrogant standards you have for game difficulty and assuming because it's fun for you, that if they just worked harder they'd experience the fun that you experience. I'm sorry it doesn't work that way, they are just getting frustrated and giving up and quitting, sure some players improve but that takes dedication, time, practice, etc... Not something casual players usually have the time for.

If you had read any of my posts you would have known better than to say this. I've played heavily since Closed Beta. My first Twin kill was on April 25th, which was patch 2.25. I still haven't cleared Turn 6 (no group). Stick to addressing my arguments instead of attacking me, because you clearly know nothing about me.

From page 67:

Just to make this perfectly clear: I'm not trolling and I'm not even "on the other side of the argument". I very deliberately staked out neutral ground and positioned myself as a non-hardcore, non-elitist who hasn't even cleared T6. My purpose here is to figure out exactly what changes people think need to be made. Because any changes made are obviously going to affect me, too. That's why I keep challenging people to be more clear, more specific, more detailed, and pointing out problems with their answers. It helps them refine their arguments.

[Lewena]

The few last posts were really interesting as it seems to me that is some understanding between each party (also I don't like casual and elitist terme). Something I feel that would be nice and allow further constructive discussion would to make a summary of what each party wants, making expectations the clearest as possible (for exemple, what is fun ?), and prioritize them. Next step would be to find a system that fullfils those expectations.

[Gormogon]

The few last posts were really interesting as it seems to me that is some understanding between each party (also I don't like casual and elitist terme). Something I feel that would be nice and allow further constructive discussion would to make a summary of what each party wants, making expectations the clearest as possible (for exemple, what is fun ?), and prioritize them. Next step would be to find a system that fullfils those expectations.

Personally it boils down to.

A.) Those that want content to be joyful.
B.) Those that want content to be exclusive.

Those part of the B camp have a very big issue with A because they interpret joy as only meaning lazy and easy. No matter how much you say otherwise and no matter how many times it is explained and showcased they wont hear it.

It's an issue that hasn't be resolved for decade but throughout that course of time I've only heard 1 Lead Designer give his 2 cents on the matter.

[Iriadysa]

I'm not going to answer to the rest of your post because this will be my last one here and I can't really be arsed to spark more arguments, but let me address this bit.

No, you don't have to memorize, but it sure helps a lot, because you're multi-tasking combat too. So if you know the next 3 moves that are coming up you can prepare for them and focus more on the combat.

Once again that comes down to bias, this may be easy for you, you are probably a very skilled player, but for many others they need to memorize at least the critical sections or they get overwhelmed.

I understand there's encounters that are impossible to beat for some people. And I argue that if they cannot beat them they should not be nerfed just so they can, end of story, because the content that can actually be marked as "impossible for some people" is Titan Ex, Twintania and Coil 2.

Titan Ex next patch will no longer be required to access Leviathan and Moogle, which effectively is like giving everyone a free kill.

By the time Coil 2 is open to the masses (I assume by the time Coil 3 hits, so 2.4), T5 will most likely not be a prerequisite to enter it as well as free entry to any turn, just like Coil 1 today.

Personally it boils down to.

A.) Those that want content to be joyful.
B.) Those that want content to be exclusive.

Those part of the B camp have a very big issue with A because they interpret joy as only meaning lazy and easy. No matter how much you say otherwise and no matter how many times it is explained and showcased they wont hear it.

It's an issue that hasn't be resolved for decade but throughout that course of time I've only heard 1 Lead Designer give his 2 cents on the matter.

When you describe the people on group B to your grand children don't forget to add the fact they had twisted horns and wings as dark as their souls.

[dejavutwo]

Personally it boils down to.

A.) Those that want content to be joyful.
B.) Those that want content to be exclusive.

Having content be difficult has nothing to do with being exclusive. Some people have fun overcoming something as a team. My most memorable and satisfying moment in any MMO was when my raid took almost 3 weeks to learn a fight, at 2-3 nights/week of attempts on that boss (Lady Vashj from WoW). Completing the fight not only put our skills to the test, it forced us to learn to work together, trust each other, and how to organize our strategies for each players strengths. After clearing that fight future fights were all much easier and quicker to learn partially because of the group cohesion we built up during that incredibly difficult fight.

Keeping a certain level of difficulty on content does also have the benefit of giving the game a smoother difficulty curve. If T4 was a bit more difficult, and T2 couldn't be done enrage method, then Coil pt.1 would have a very steady difficulty curve and T5 would not have been nearly the culture shock that it is.

Providing content to cater to players who like overcoming challenges is not a bad thing, and making it easier as time goes on to make it more accessible is not a bad either. SE is doing everything they can to balance their demographics with not only the content easing, but also alternate paths to gear of almost equal quality such as Novus and Crystal Tower.

Whether your a hardcore player who has cleared everything, or a more casual player who is stuck on a fight waiting for the next round of CT/Echo, its a slow process and takes patience.

[Gormogon]

Having content be difficult has nothing to do with being exclusive.

So you're telling me that 100% of the player base can complete it and not the so so small percentage?

[Kuwagami]

So you're telling me that 100% of the player base can complete it and not the so so small percentage?

please be honest. As much as I dislike the actual concept of rope jumping, 100% of the playerbase can complete the content (except blind people, if there are any... ). The factors included in the fact that they don't are not related to the possibility to do it.


They *can* do it. It has been made so that it is possible to clear it. However, the factors lag, other people, time spent in, personal learning curve (to name a few) will prevent them from succeeding. But this has nothing to do with the fact that they *can* do it.


Out of the people who have not cleared T5, there are :
=> those who never tried
=> those who don't know the fight yet
=> those with no static who did not find the good PUG yet (a whole lot of people fall under those 3 categories)

=> those with lag who can't get past dives, or twisters.


except the last category (which will have a hard time finishing it unless their connection gets fixed), all people could spend time learning, and eventually, maybe, get a kill, depending on their own learning curve, their party members, and some luck.


The problem isn't really here you know...