Frontlines ilvl sync

[Tandy]

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

So are they separate or arent they? they attract different crowds and generally have totally different styles of play. I just dont understand why everyone is so upset and raging over this. More pvp is a good thing for people who like pvp. Period. Get more people into it and you will find more people moving into wolves den as they get the "bug" from frontlines. Regardless of morale or not. At least wait till its out and see if SE screws it up first.

Win trading DESTROYED most peoples opinion on pvp in this game, it made it so people didnt give 2 shits about even trying it and thought people who did make max rank were trash regardless if they win traded or not. Give it some time to sort itself out, and the taint of all that to fade and see what SE does on the morale issues then.

[Shake0615]

So are they separate or arent they?

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan. Hell, I'd even support eliminating morale all together as long as that 4th stat is replaced with something worthwhile. Maybe redistribute those points into Vitality and Defense (survivability is always important in PvP) or offer set bonuses (+100 HP for full Swansgrace gear or + 5 Stun Resistance).

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

[Tandy]

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan.

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

I dont think PVE analogy works due to the core differences between the 2 things. In pve, your always focued on killing mobs. Doesnt matter if its a solo quest or coil or a primal etc its about you vs a mob, period. It never deviates from that, ever. The outcome is always the same, you kill the mob or the mob kills you. There is no winning by doing other things, there is no sneaking past things without killing them to get your loot, there is nothing but killing them dead.

In pvp, arena is deathmatch. You kill each other ASAP. Its you taking out your opponents any way possible. If you dont kill anyone you lose. Objective pvp, you dont really need to kill ANYONE. You have to claim your objectives and thats the goal. It doesnt matter if you kill 50 people or none. You win all the same. To me, those are inherently different because of the goal of the "game".

[Shake0615]

I dont think PVE analogy works due to the core differences between the 2 things. In pve, your always focued on killing mobs. Doesnt matter if its a solo quest or coil or a primal etc its about you vs a mob, period. It never deviates from that, ever. The outcome is always the same, you kill the mob or the mob kills you. There is no winning by doing other things, there is no sneaking past things without killing them to get your loot, there is nothing but killing them dead.

In pvp, arena is deathmatch. You kill each other ASAP. Its you taking out your opponents any way possible. If you dont kill anyone you lose. Objective pvp, you dont really need to kill ANYONE. You have to claim your objectives and thats the goal. It doesnt matter if you kill 50 people or none. You win all the same. To me, those are inherently different because of the goal of the "game".

Well, I could also respond that your analogy doesn't work either because let's face it...in FFXIV the majority of your performance is based on doing a dance not just doing damage. I don't think anyone could argue that beating T5 is ultimately boiled down to "there's nothing but killing Twintania" or that you could beat Leviathan/Titan Extreme without knowing how to dodge. Even in PvE there are many "objectives" to winning besides just dps-ing. But even if it were different in PvE, let's also face the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that you could win a battleground without actually fighting another player in reality. People will be defending their objectives and from the time you engage them to the time one party wins for all intents and purposes it becomes a deathmatch. Sure, theoretically you could wind a BG without actually fighting another player but in 7 years of playing MMOs I haven't seen it yet. If you don't really want to face another player in the battleground, you really don't want Frontlines; you want SE to bring back Skirmishes from 1.0.

It seems that you and I are at impasse, so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration our comments anyway.

[Tandy]

Well, I could also respond that your analogy doesn't work either because let's face it...in FFXIV the majority of your performance is based on doing a dance not just doing damage. I don't think anyone could argue that beating T5 is ultimately boiled down to "there's nothing but killing Twintania" or that you could beat Leviathan/Titan Extreme without knowing how to dodge. Even in PvE there are many "objectives" to winning besides just dps-ing. But even if it were different in PvE, let's also face the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that you could win a battleground without actually fighting another player in reality. People will be defending their objectives and from the time you engage them to the time one party wins for all intents and purposes it becomes a deathmatch. Sure, theoretically you could wind a BG without actually fighting another player but in 7 years of playing MMOs I haven't seen it yet.

It seems that you and I are at impasse, so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration either of our ideas anyway

I can at least see where your coming from, so its not like I dont understand totally, even if we wont change each others minds, we are at least seeing the "same things". But even Twin or Titan/Levi, dance or no dance...the fights not over till they die :P The dance is merely how you get to the objective, do it properly but dont kill the mob and you still lose. And your right about the pvp killing, I dont think I have ever won a battleground without killing at least one person, but its theoretically possible at least. The killing there to me is the dance from pve, just an obstacle in the way of the objective. No matter how much you do kill though, take no objective and you still lose.

And your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time

[Shake0615]

IAnd your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time

Ain't that the truth lol.

[Nalien]

It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration our comments anyway.

And your right, what we say matters nothing to the dev's lol its all just a way to pass the time

This makes me sad for its truth...

So far the developers haven't exactly handled PvP with the greatest level of aptitude when left to their own devices (at best they've been fairly slow at addressing issues), I'd rather they take points from both sides from these discussions and try and build a middle ground, than have a repeat of Wolves' Den when it first launched... Another reason I hate how SE handles content reveals (have done since XI), they tell us so close to release, so that if there is an issue with it, it's too late to really address it before release. If we'd known any details about Frontlines at literally any point in the three years we've been waiting for it, they could have molded it to better suit the community before release, rather than solely relying on feedback after release.