Frontlines ilvl sync

[Shake0615]

Actually I think many people feel frontlines and wolves den are SEPARATE TYPES OF PVP. No one that I have seen has cared about morale/gear/grinding in wolves den. Thats what arena pvp is for, add in some leaderboards - seasons and rankings etc. and have at arena! Its all about whos the best there.

Large scale pvp or objective pvp is a different TYPE of pvp totally. Until you can realize that you wont even understand the rationale at all. One shouldn't depend on the other. They both should have reasons for doing them, and different types of players will do them with some overlap of pvp'ers who like both.

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

And just to be clear, I'm not an arena junkie. I prefer large-scale PvP. But I think segregating arena vs Frontlines and making them play by different rules is horrid design.

[Tandy]

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

So are they separate or arent they? they attract different crowds and generally have totally different styles of play. I just dont understand why everyone is so upset and raging over this. More pvp is a good thing for people who like pvp. Period. Get more people into it and you will find more people moving into wolves den as they get the "bug" from frontlines. Regardless of morale or not. At least wait till its out and see if SE screws it up first.

Win trading DESTROYED most peoples opinion on pvp in this game, it made it so people didnt give 2 shits about even trying it and thought people who did make max rank were trash regardless if they win traded or not. Give it some time to sort itself out, and the taint of all that to fade and see what SE does on the morale issues then.

[Shake0615]

So are they separate or arent they?

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan. Hell, I'd even support eliminating morale all together as long as that 4th stat is replaced with something worthwhile. Maybe redistribute those points into Vitality and Defense (survivability is always important in PvP) or offer set bonuses (+100 HP for full Swansgrace gear or + 5 Stun Resistance).

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

[Tandy]

Nailen, I understand what you want with enticing people to wolves den, but it needs to not involve frontlines. It needs to be an incentive within wolves den itself.

For the vast majority of people wanting objective based pvp, we would rather gnaw our foot off than do arena....FOR ANY REASON. Seriously, they could give me a golden chocobo that shit novus weapons on Sundays and I would rather poke my eye out than do arena. Morale gear not working and giving everyone base morale does the exact same thing just in opposite ways, and neither will force people into doing arena if they don't want too.

[Nalien]

Nailen, I understand what you want with enticing people to wolves den, but it needs to not involve frontlines. It needs to be an incentive within wolves den itself.

For the vast majority of people wanting objective based pvp, we would rather gnaw our foot off than do arena....FOR ANY REASON. Seriously, they could give me a golden chocobo that shit novus weapons on Sundays and I would rather poke my eye out than do arena. Morale gear not working and giving everyone base morale does the exact same thing just in opposite ways, and neither will force people into doing arena if they don't want too.

Again (I'm so tired of this...), I'm not suggesting you HAVE to do Wolves' Den. I appreciate that it might be hard to follow, because my opinion has evolved over time as a result of these discussions (well, if you can call half the posters just resorting to insults "discussions").

If you want to only do Frontlines, only do Frontlines. It still rewards you with Rank EXP and Wolf Marks, you can still progress only doing Frontlines (again, with Morale adjusted to play less of a drastic impact).
If self mutilation isn't your thing, and you wouldn't mind doing Wolves' Den, you do Wolves' Den to speed up the progression. Wolves' Den matches take less time, after all.

I am not suggesting making Frontlines a carrot on a string that forces people into Wolves' Den. I'm suggesting making Morale a carrot on a string that can entice people into Wolves' Den if they don't loath the arena. You can see the difference, right?

[Pibz]

Even if wolves den would be 200% faster to acquire it, I doubt many who wouldn't already do arena would do it is my point. If someone is going to do arena they will give it a shot and like it or not. Having leaderboards and seasons and special wolves den only gear would and should be the solution to help get people playing it....not worrying about getting people to suffer through cause they can get gear faster to use elsewhere. Both types of pvp need separate rewards I think, to foster populations in both.

Couldn't have said it better. Wolve's den should be based around competitive ladder instead of being some place to gear up.

[Tandy]

Even if wolves den would be 200% faster to acquire it, I doubt many who wouldn't already do arena would do it is my point. If someone is going to do arena they will give it a shot and like it or not. Having leaderboards and seasons and special wolves den only gear would and should be the solution to help get people playing it....not worrying about getting people to suffer through cause they can get gear faster to use elsewhere. Both types of pvp need separate rewards I think, to foster populations in both.

Also, tying it to faster gear for frontlines also encourages more win trading by people resenting doing it cause it would be fastest way to gear, since they want it ASAP and god knows the last thing anyone needs is more win trading period.

[Nalien]

Both types of pvp need separate rewards I think, to foster populations in both.

Only issue with that is I doubt XIV can sustain two separate PvP communities. Even non-PvPers (like yourself?) who are interested in Frontlines are in the minority in XIV, the majority thinks it's a waste of development in a PvE game (especially a Final Fantasy one). If there is some overlap, then it's much healthier for both communities, in my opinion.

With Morale, and Wolf Marks progression (I'm sure I've mentioned adjusting that as well), adjusted slightly, I really don't think it would be something people have to suffer through. Certainly enough to entice a few people into Wolves' Den more regularly, and if any are enticed into Wolves' Den (again, because they want to, not because they have to), then it's a success in my opinion.

Also, tying it to faster gear for frontlines also encourages more win trading by people resenting doing it cause it would be fastest way to gear, since they want it ASAP and god knows the last thing anyone needs is more win trading period.

A reason they should clamp down on win trading, nothing more.

Couldn't have said it better. Wolve's den should be based around competitive ladder instead of being some place to gear up.

Again, not saying you have to go to Wolves' Den to gear up. I'm just saying it should be there as an option; like grinding tomestones to gear up along side Coil.

To give an example;

Currrently it takes around 7 wins to obtain the lowest costing i70 gear, and around double that for the most expensive. I'd suggest lowering that to 2~3 wins at Wolves' Den, and 1~2 at Frontlines. It is, after all, the entry level PvP gear (sitting right under the Frontlines iCap, too), I don't think it should be as much of a grind to obtain as it currently is. None of the PvP gear should be as much of a grind as it is.

If we're keeping Morale, it should be for both, not just Wolves' Den. Alone it makes no sense in Wolves' Den, if that's to be the competitive scene anyway. As it stands, Wolves' Den isn't about competitive play, it's about grinding. Leave Morale in and make the grind tolerable, or remove Morale completely and overhaul Wolves' Den. Don't half ass it.

Once it's out, you might realize it doesn't hurt the population at all, it's the way wolves den is that hurts itself and it needs changed.

I agree, I just think it would be easier to fix a broken bridge, than to knock it down and build a new one; to butcher a metaphor.

Keep Morale in tact, adjust its effect as needed, reassess PvPs progression scale (it's too steep). Wolves' Den and Frontlines both supplement each other, without having a negative impact on each other. From there they can both split off over time.

I really don't think Morale gear, if kept at all, should be a difficult thing to obtain. It really does confuse me that XIV was such a progressively "easy" game compared to XI, yet occasionally the developers see fit to add something, usually meaningless, that is comparable to XI. Morale gear and PvP Ranks is one of those. Camping Vistas for a minion is another, as are Behemoth and Odin. It's an... Odd quirk of XIVs, I guess.

How do you know pvp gear will be subpar, what makes you believe melded stats won't also take effect therefore removing the whole "we lose 4th stat argument" because if it does you can still get 5 stats out of your gear and i don't see how you would need more.

You obtained PvP gear! Your reward? Now you have to meld it to make it equal to PvE gear in PvP!

What Tandy suggested is workable (NPC at the camp could convert Morale into whatever stat people want, I imagine). Having to meld PvP gear to make it work wouldn't be a solution, that's the same reason they should stick with the i80 cap instead of perhaps an i90 like they suggested. I'm sure nobody wants the richest folk in Wolfram/etc to be the ones with an advantage in Frontlines.

[Tandy]

I consider myself an objective based or large scale pvp'er. If an MMO I'm playing has it I spend the majority of my time there over raiding and other things. If frontlines works out I doubt I will see coil or a primal much at all lol. I think you will be shocked at the people playing it, and more shocked that they are cause of the no morale. Once it's out, you might realize it doesn't hurt the population at all, it's the way wolves den is that hurts itself and it needs changed.

[Shake0615]

I consider myself an objective based or large scale pvp'er. If an MMO I'm playing has it I spend the majority of my time there over raiding and other things. If frontlines works out I doubt I will see coil or a primal much at all lol. I think you will be shocked at the people playing it, and more shocked that they are cause of the no morale. Once it's out, you might realize it doesn't hurt the population at all, it's the way wolves den is that hurts itself and it needs changed.

I think sometimes people are misunderstanding what the Wolves' Den PvPers are saying about the gear. When we say we want to use the gear, we don't mean that we need to have morale intact. As you and I were discussing earlier, I want it removed! But until that 38 Vitality, 37 Mind, 40 Critical Hit Rate and 44 Morale on the Elktail Grimoire becomes 38 Vitality, 37 Mind, 40 Critical Hit Rate and 44 Determination (or Spell Speed), then that piece of gear is worthless because it is missing a stat. We don't necessarily want morale. We just want the gear to be equal in Frontlines being that there is no morale.

I like objective-based PvP way more than I like arena, but that doesn't mean that I'm willing to throw out all my progress to play Frontlines.