Frontlines ilvl sync

[Tandy]

To put Frontlines and Morale into perspective; When Coil comes out and your gear is that of the last update, you don't ask for Coil to be leveled such that your gear is the best for it, do you? You go out and obtain the new gear by grinding tomestones in order to improve your chances in Coil. The exact same should apply to Frontlines; you do it, you realize better gear would benefit you, you do Wolves' Den to get that gear, then you return. Morale is needed to make a distinction between PvE and PvP gear, with no Morale you'd just use PvE gear and there would be no need to progress in PvP.

What your saying here makes no sense. Its making the analogy that when a new coil comes out you should have to grind old content to complete it. Well, you dont. When a new coil comes out you can immediately start doing it and advancing with it and get drops in the first turn as soon as you beat it.
You dont HAVE to go out and do anything else since the first turn is balanced against what gear you have already. Each turn gets harder of course, but its still not something like what your saying.

[Nalien]

What your saying here makes no sense. Its making the analogy that when a new coil comes out you should have to grind old content to complete it. Well, you dont. When a new coil comes out you can immediately start doing it and advancing with it and get drops in the first turn as soon as you beat it.
You dont HAVE to go out and do anything else since the first turn is balanced against what gear you have already. Each turn gets harder of course, but its still not something like what your saying.

And I'm not saying you should HAVE to do Wolves' Den before Frontlines (not anymore at least), I'm just saying it'd be a good idea to get the Morale gear. Just like grinding new tomestones is a good idea when doing Coil. You can just do Frontlines without getting Morale gear, but you'd be at a slight disadvantage, one you can still close solely doing Frontlines to obtain the gear. Just like someone who obtains better gear before/during Coil has a slight advantage. You can only do Coil for i90/95 and i110/115, but it's faster to also get the Mythology gear alongside. You can only do Frontlines and earn Wolf Marks (they said same as Wolves' Den + tomestones), bit it's faster to also get into Wolves' Den to farm there (Wolves' Den matches should be faster than Frontlines). While that might make take people out of Frontlines, they also have tomestone rewards there, which should still draw people in frequently, depending how they work it.

[Shake0615]

The fact of the matter is that we will always be at an impasse with the PvE players because the majority of them feel that (to quote another poster) "FFXIV is a PvE game." Therefore most of them just consider PvP a diversion and they want to be able to freely come and go without consequence or disadvantage. There's no other way to understand their position unless you take into account the fact that they want to have their cake and eat it too. These same players will spend days grinding out atma, tomestones and alexandrites for their Novus because they feel it's worth their time (presumably because it would provide them an advantage in Coil). But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their position is simply hypocritical. inconsistent and untenable. Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing." In fact, most of the posters have spent their time arguing ad nauseum about how pissed they are that CT2 will drop Sands/Oils of Time or how the Echo Buff is making this game "easy mode for teh casuals oh noes!" This is hypocrisy at its finest.

Either way, this discussion is supposed to be about the iLevel Sync. If done properly, the sync should prevent players from having a gross amount of morale anyway so I don't understand the need to remove it entirely.

[Tandy]

But they don't want to grind the Wolves' Den for an advantage in PvP and damn it they don't want anyone else to have an advantage over them! Their position is simply hypocritical. inconsistent and untenable. Not a single one of them would claim that PvE should be "equal footing." In fact, most of the posters have spent their time arguing ad nauseum about how pissed they are that CT2 will drop Sands/Oils of Time or how the Echo Buff is making this game "easy mode for teh casuals oh noes!" This is hypocrisy at its finest.

Actually I think many people feel frontlines and wolves den are SEPARATE TYPES OF PVP. No one that I have seen has cared about morale/gear/grinding in wolves den. Thats what arena pvp is for, add in some leaderboards - seasons and rankings etc. and have at arena! Its all about whos the best there.

Large scale pvp or objective pvp is a different TYPE of pvp totally. Until you can realize that you wont even understand the rationale at all. One shouldn't depend on the other. They both should have reasons for doing them, and different types of players will do them with some overlap of pvp'ers who like both.

[Shake0615]

Actually I think many people feel frontlines and wolves den are SEPARATE TYPES OF PVP. No one that I have seen has cared about morale/gear/grinding in wolves den. Thats what arena pvp is for, add in some leaderboards - seasons and rankings etc. and have at arena! Its all about whos the best there.

Large scale pvp or objective pvp is a different TYPE of pvp totally. Until you can realize that you wont even understand the rationale at all. One shouldn't depend on the other. They both should have reasons for doing them, and different types of players will do them with some overlap of pvp'ers who like both.

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

And just to be clear, I'm not an arena junkie. I prefer large-scale PvP. But I think segregating arena vs Frontlines and making them play by different rules is horrid design.

[Tandy]

As I posted in one of these threads, arbitrarily calling arena vs battleground "separate types of PvP" is just a false dichotomy. PvP is PvP is PvP and doesn't matter how you or anyone else feels about it. It's for the same reason that you don't have different gear sets or rules for Coil, CT, Primal fights, FATEs, Guildleves or Guildhests. Because PvE is PvE is PvE no matter the context. I'm not saying that Frontlines should be dependent on the Wolves' Den at all, but rewards earned in ANY TYPE of PvP should apply to any other. Remember, you will be able to earn the same rewards by participating in Frontlines if arena isn't your cup of tea. Arena players are not getting any advantage that Frontlines players can't get themselves by playing Frontlines.

Take WoW, for example. There was never a situation during the time that I played in which the gear I earned in Arena could not be used in Alterac Valley or vice-versa. Yeah, they may be "separate types" of PvP but they didn't change the rules of play.

So are they separate or arent they? they attract different crowds and generally have totally different styles of play. I just dont understand why everyone is so upset and raging over this. More pvp is a good thing for people who like pvp. Period. Get more people into it and you will find more people moving into wolves den as they get the "bug" from frontlines. Regardless of morale or not. At least wait till its out and see if SE screws it up first.

Win trading DESTROYED most peoples opinion on pvp in this game, it made it so people didnt give 2 shits about even trying it and thought people who did make max rank were trash regardless if they win traded or not. Give it some time to sort itself out, and the taint of all that to fade and see what SE does on the morale issues then.

[Shake0615]

So are they separate or arent they?

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan. Hell, I'd even support eliminating morale all together as long as that 4th stat is replaced with something worthwhile. Maybe redistribute those points into Vitality and Defense (survivability is always important in PvP) or offer set bonuses (+100 HP for full Swansgrace gear or + 5 Stun Resistance).

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

[Ransu]

We should also put a cap on player PvP experience. All the people who have ever had any kind of PvP experience should automatically be turned into noobs when they walk in to ensure fairness. Also an intelligence cap, so everyone nobody can be smarter. Maybe an internet speed cap, reflex cap, etc. Let's make things as fair as possible by making it so no team wins or loses. Everyone gets a personal fireworks show and pat on the back after the match ends, then we all go out for pizza and ice cream.

Reading your posts make my head hurt. There is a massive difference between a skill gap and a gear gap.

PvP stat is becoming obsolete. Many MMO's are creating systems to slowly move away from it. Skill is all that should matter in pvp. Why do you need a pvp stat when it normalizes between two equally geared pvp players? As I said in the other thread, pvp stats are pointless. It's just there so people can go "lol I one shot the newb." It has no other purpose.

[Tandy]

Notice the quotations - that implies that I don't agree with the terminology. The point is that arena vs battleground PvP is no more "separate" than Coil, CT, Primals or any of the other "types" of PvE that I mentioned. It's just bad design to create different rules of play for things that are essentially the same. I'm all about getting more people involved in PvP and I'm not opposed to tweaking morale (I am opposed to getting rid of it in FL). I also agree that win trading has perverted the playing field. My point is simply that this is a terrible way to go about leveling the playing field and plenty of us have offered better suggestions than the current development plan.

I also still stand by my point that most of the people who claim that arena and FL are separate "just because" are acting in their own hypocritical self interest. They don't like arena, they do like BGs, and they want a separate set of rules because they don't want to be bothered with someone maybe having a slight advantage over them because they worked for gear in a slightly different "type" of PvP.

I dont think PVE analogy works due to the core differences between the 2 things. In pve, your always focued on killing mobs. Doesnt matter if its a solo quest or coil or a primal etc its about you vs a mob, period. It never deviates from that, ever. The outcome is always the same, you kill the mob or the mob kills you. There is no winning by doing other things, there is no sneaking past things without killing them to get your loot, there is nothing but killing them dead.

In pvp, arena is deathmatch. You kill each other ASAP. Its you taking out your opponents any way possible. If you dont kill anyone you lose. Objective pvp, you dont really need to kill ANYONE. You have to claim your objectives and thats the goal. It doesnt matter if you kill 50 people or none. You win all the same. To me, those are inherently different because of the goal of the "game".

[Shake0615]

I dont think PVE analogy works due to the core differences between the 2 things. In pve, your always focued on killing mobs. Doesnt matter if its a solo quest or coil or a primal etc its about you vs a mob, period. It never deviates from that, ever. The outcome is always the same, you kill the mob or the mob kills you. There is no winning by doing other things, there is no sneaking past things without killing them to get your loot, there is nothing but killing them dead.

In pvp, arena is deathmatch. You kill each other ASAP. Its you taking out your opponents any way possible. If you dont kill anyone you lose. Objective pvp, you dont really need to kill ANYONE. You have to claim your objectives and thats the goal. It doesnt matter if you kill 50 people or none. You win all the same. To me, those are inherently different because of the goal of the "game".

Well, I could also respond that your analogy doesn't work either because let's face it...in FFXIV the majority of your performance is based on doing a dance not just doing damage. I don't think anyone could argue that beating T5 is ultimately boiled down to "there's nothing but killing Twintania" or that you could beat Leviathan/Titan Extreme without knowing how to dodge. Even in PvE there are many "objectives" to winning besides just dps-ing. But even if it were different in PvE, let's also face the fact that it's unreasonable to assume that you could win a battleground without actually fighting another player in reality. People will be defending their objectives and from the time you engage them to the time one party wins for all intents and purposes it becomes a deathmatch. Sure, theoretically you could wind a BG without actually fighting another player but in 7 years of playing MMOs I haven't seen it yet. If you don't really want to face another player in the battleground, you really don't want Frontlines; you want SE to bring back Skirmishes from 1.0.

It seems that you and I are at impasse, so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree. It's not like the Dev's will be taking into consideration our comments anyway.