NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[LoLo]

How often do you see Archers in instances after 30? What about Gladiators, or Lancers? PvP is literally the only place Classes can shine, and even then that's just Gladiator and Marauder.

Classes may as well be their Jobs once you hit 30, Rouge and Ninja should be no different. Rouge could be a proxy for Thief, but if you're playing Ninja, you certainly aren't playing Thief. Last I checked Thief didn't do crazy hand signs and spit ice, at least.

So, Thief either is Rouge, and it's gone after 30, or Thief is a Job at some point. For it not to happen at all just contradicts the implementation of Jobs at all.

I have been trying to explain this thank you.

I liked how you mentioned Yoshi P saying he would bring back classic Final Fantasy Jobs but is now go back on his word to the community if he reverts Thief only to a class named Rogue or doesn't add Thief at all.

I wanted to add that I do not see any harm in including a Thief Job is this game that stems from Rogue. A name change of Rogue class to Thief class will also be problematic and not what people who are interested in playing a Thief.

Yes, it would harm and affect others play styles, because hey look, even more dps jobs we dont need. I said having a different role- tank or healer, would be far more beneficial for everyone. DPS queues are already insane, and there are never enough tanks or healers. ...................................................

I can understand having a job you really love and want added to the game. Maybe Im biased because I was never that big a fan of thief
Edit: Also, because you keep insisting you dont play a class past 30. Yes. You do.

Ninja addition to this game will not be the last DPS job to be added. People who want to play tank will still main a tank job. The people who already play a DPS job will still main a DPS job and that is what Ninja and any other additional DPS job in the future will be for. You can not make people who do not want to main a Tank or Healer play them by adding additional tank and healing options. In all MMO's there are more DPS players than healers and tanks.

I can't understand your bias or against Thief Job being in this game. There are possible future classes and jobs that I don't want to play but I don't mind it being released.

[Nalien]

I have been trying to explain this very concept, but at this point the people who are replying to me refused to try and understand this.

I'm really surprised at the "hate" Thief is getting here, I can understand people having concerns about it being added, but quite a few people just seem to out right reject the very concept of it getting added.

I know I keep coming back to Bard, but it's the perfect example. Plenty of people suggest Ranger should come off Archer, when they do people don't claim that "Bard is just Ranger with Songs", or that Archer is already Ranger. They have concerns about how it would be added, usually leading to people suggesting Bard be changed to be more Bard, but they don't out right reject the idea. Rouge, Ninja and Thief is almost exactly the same, with Ninja being close to Bard from what I've read;

Ninjas will incorporate the abilities of rogues and will also have Ninjutsu and hand gestures. The gestures will be combined in different ways and will result in different Ninjutsu abilities.

That makes it sound like Ninja will have a deceptively large number of Job abilities, just like Summoner and Scholar. Rather than them being tied to pets though, they'll be through combinations. That's the sort of thing they should have done with Bard to give it more than three bloody songs (how am I still mad about that?). It allows the Job to be very distinctive from the Class.

That alone can make Ninja feel very distinct from Rouge, and thus Thief which would just be the natural progression of Rouge, just like Ranger would be the natural progression of Archer.

I think nin will share with mnk. Nin could be str and if SE adds thief to rogue then thf could be dex(brd) D;

I'd hope Ninja has something similar to Clerics Stance; converts STR into INT. The Rouge/Melee moves use STR, when you want to throw down some Ninjutsu, you switch your STR to INT.

[Monsalvato]

They have concerns about how it would be added, usually leading to people suggesting Bard be changed to be more Bard

I still dream about that happening... but realistically it will never happen unless they modify their trinity model to be less strict.
If they were to enlarge the current very strict trinity system from Tank, Healer, DD to Tank, Healer, DD, Hybrid... then yes, it might happen.

I doubt it will because it makes things much harder for them to balance and handle, but personally I love such a model way more than the oversimplified one they're currently using, so yeah, let's keep our fingers crossed.

[Kitru]

Plenty of people suggest Ranger should come off Archer, when they do people don't claim that "Bard is just Ranger with Songs", or that Archer is already Ranger.

Actually, almost everyone that facepalms at the idea of implementing RNG as a second job off of ARC, it gets brought up *all the time* that ARC is already RNG. The 2 trademark abilities that RNG has had are Barrage and Aim. ARC explicitly *gets* Barrage and Hawk's Eye is Aim (short duration, increased damage, cannot miss).

Furthermore, those of us that get aggravated about the THF fanbois insisting that THF should be brought into game and/or that it will be brought into game it's basically because you're asking for the developers to waste development resources.

Consider this: the only possible role for THF to fill within the confines of the trinity is DPS (Support isn't a role, it's a subrole; with the hypothetical hybrid role, how does THF get interpreted as either healer *or* tank without stretching the entire theme to the point of incredulity?). NIN is already a DPS and jobs only bring 5 abilities so any other DPS built off of ROG would play just like NIN (because NIN already plays like ROG with a slight modification).

Adding THF to ROG as a second job is basically wasted development resources because it's not *adding* anything to the game: THF would still play *just* like NIN with a few *tiny* differences (you now use Steal to get a job specific resource to fuel special attacks instead of using mudras). The only major difference would be that it's called THF instead of NIN and has a different look (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job).

As to people thinking that THF would bring "useful" abilities like enmity management or loot acquisition mechanisms, neither of those are going to be brought in because the first is completely and totally worthless (the state of enmity generation currently in game is more than enough; the only thing a "trick shot" style enmity transfer would do is give THF a massively powerful trolling tool) and the second would either make THF required for doing *anything* (if it increases drop rate on rare stuff) or turn said attribute be completely and totally worthless piece of fluff (possibly a small economic advantage; it's not going to be an appreciable economic advantage because you'd be giving a significant economic advantage to a single combat class when the economic advantages are supposed to be DoL/DoH based since that's what they're there for).

To the people that seriously want to see THF brought in as a job, I challenge you (the "THF can will be a job" people) to come up with 5 *useful* abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken while simultaneously explaining how those 5 abilities (and just those 5 abilities; saying that a whole slew of class abilities will be entirely rewritten when you swap to said job is just saying admitting that you can't change the playstyle with just a job) will completely and totally change how a class plays when it converts over to a job (and you cannot simply put together 5 attacks that replace the ones the class gets; the devs are correcting the unintentionally unused abilities so designing a class that *purposefully* renders a large number of abilities from the base class useless is just inane).

"Changing how the class plays" doesn't just mean "I added an attack"; it means making it so that the base class goes from playing like LNC to playing like PUG or from SMN to BLM (e.g. it is a recognizably different *playstyle*). DRG adds the jumps, but it is still fundamentally LNC. WAR adds the Wrath stuff, but it plays *exactly* like MRD 90% of the time. PLD plays exactly like GLA. All of the jobs (with the exception of SCH because it's a completely different role that uses a completely different suite of abilities) are simply a small set of bonus conditional options (or abilities that are used but do not interfere with the existing playstyle). If you honestly think that THF can coexist with NIN as a ROG job, come up with some way for it to coexist rather than co-opt it.

[Nalien]

Actually, almost everyone that facepalms at the idea of implementing RNG as a second job off of ARC, it gets brought up *all the time* that ARC is already RNG. The 2 trademark abilities that RNG has had are Barrage and Aim. ARC explicitly *gets* Barrage and Hawk's Eye is Aim (short duration, increased damage, cannot miss).

You and I must have visited some very different "New Job suggestions" threads... Archer => Ranger is something I've seen almost unanimously agreed upon in such threads.

Consider this: the only possible role for THF to fill within the confines of the trinity is DPS (Support isn't a role, it's a subrole; with the hypothetical hybrid role, how does THF get interpreted as either healer *or* tank without stretching the entire theme to the point of incredulity?). NIN is already a DPS and jobs only bring 5 abilities so any other DPS built off of ROG would play just like NIN (because NIN already plays like ROG with a slight modification).

Adding THF to ROG as a second job is basically wasted development resources because it's not *adding* anything to the game: THF would still play *just* like NIN with a few *tiny* differences (you now use Steal to get a job specific resource to fuel special attacks instead of using mudras). The only major difference would be that it's called THF instead of NIN and has a different look (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job).

2 DPS roles coming off 1 Class is hardly the end of the world, and it would be no more a waste of resources than all Jobs are already. Again, Yoshida specifically went about implementing Jobs the moment he took over XIV. Adding the Jobs was his call, he could have just left Classes the same and given them what are now Job abilities (in fact, most of them were regular Class abilities at launch, weren't they?).

No, he specifically set out to add Jobs for the sole reason of adding Jobs, because apparently that matters to Final Fantasy. Thief is a Job, not a Class, because Classes are worthless.

If you honestly think that THF can coexist with NIN as a ROG job, come up with some way for it to coexist rather than co-opt it.

Fairly sure I already have, not that such a thing matters until we actually know more about Rouge and Ninjas skill sets.

Oh seriously? I was pretty sure my conjurer, archer and lancer kept learning skills up to level 50, and that Dragoon, Bard and White Mage only gave me 5 extra skills and a couple traits....

Oh, you play Lancer at level 50 do you?

Seriously, how dense can people be that they cannot comprehend this simple point? You do not play Lancer at Lv50. You play Dragoon. Yes it has Lancers skills still, but that doesn't mean you're playing Lancer. You specifically equip an item to play Dragoon and 30 and you never unequip it.

Jesus Christ, it's like arguing with a wall...

[LoLo]

Jesus Christ, it's like arguing with a wall...

Yep, and you just end up talking in circles with them. Best not to engage people who refused to reason.

Not only that, but apparently all characters will remain at level 50 and there is no possible chance that jobs will get more than just 5 actions...

[Nero]

Actually, almost everyone that facepalms at the idea of implementing RNG as a second job off of ARC, it gets brought up *all the time* that ARC is already RNG. The 2 trademark abilities that RNG has had are Barrage and Aim. ARC explicitly *gets* Barrage and Hawk's Eye is Aim (short duration, increased damage, cannot miss).

RNG branching from ARC is not a new Idea and has been brough up and agreed on a lot of times. And No, Archer is not Ranger. The same way Paladin is not Gladiator and Warrior is not Marauder. The same way Ninja will not be Rogue and Thief is also not Rogue. Archer don't have to work 100% the same like it did in previous FF Titles and the same goes for THF. Actually Bard has proven, that it can differ a lot from how it plays in comparsion to other titles.

Furthermore, those of us that get aggravated about the THF fanbois insisting that THF should be brought into game and/or that it will be brought into game it's basically because you're asking for the developers to waste development resources.

Consider this: the only possible role for THF to fill within the confines of the trinity is DPS (Support isn't a role, it's a subrole; with the hypothetical hybrid role, how does THF get interpreted as either healer *or* tank without stretching the entire theme to the point of incredulity?). NIN is already a DPS and jobs only bring 5 abilities so any other DPS built off of ROG would play just like NIN (because NIN already plays like ROG with a slight modification).

We don't know how Rogue and Ninja play, but from what has been said so far, they play different in most aspects. Being Class and Job and using the same Weapon, does not mean they play the same way. THF can still be DPS and also can be "Support". Yea, you are right.. support is not a role.. yet, still can work as one, the same way BRD can work as one, while being a DPS.

Adding THF to ROG as a second job is basically wasted development resources because it's not *adding* anything to the game: THF would still play *just* like NIN with a few *tiny* differences (you now use Steal to get a job specific resource to fuel special attacks instead of using mudras). The only major difference would be that it's called THF instead of NIN and has a different look (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job).

Same thing again. Look at how SMN and SCH are different from each other, even if you claim: (90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job) So why would that not apply to THF and NIN?

(90+% of a class/job's functionality is derived from the class, not the job)To the people that seriously want to see THF brought in as a job, I challenge you (the "THF can will be a job" people) to come up with 5 *useful* abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken while simultaneously explaining how those 5 abilities (and just those 5 abilities; saying that a whole slew of class abilities will be entirely rewritten when you swap to said job is just saying admitting that you can't change the playstyle with just a job) will completely and totally change how a class plays when it converts over to a job (and you cannot simply put together 5 attacks that replace the ones the class gets; the devs are correcting the unintentionally unused abilities so designing a class that *purposefully* renders a large number of abilities from the base class useless is just inane).

5 you want?

1) Steal

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 500

Can steal an Item, which would drop from the Treasure Chest, after defeating it. Chance of Success: 10%

2) Treasure Hunter

Cast Instant, Recast 720, TP Cost 250

Improves the successrate of Steal by 15%, lowers your defense by 15% in exchange.

3) Sneak Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 180, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from behind, with PT member between you and the Target.

Increases your Atk by 15% if successfull, STR of the PT Member by 5%, lowers your defense by 15% if failed. Successrate: 70%

4) Trick Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 360, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from flank, with PT member between you and the Target.

lowers your Atk by 15% if successfull, lowers Atk of the PT Member by 5%, increases Steal by 5% and next SA by 30%.

5) Gil Toss

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 200

Does throw a random number of Gil out of the PT total pool ( max 50k ) at the Enemy and in exchange can incease the Droprate of rare Items. In example Mounts.


Lol.. i made those up in like what? 2 Minutes? The 5 Job Abilities can change the Class and its gameplayA LOT.

"Changing how the class plays" doesn't just mean "I added an attack"; it means making it so that the base class goes from playing like LNC to playing like PUG or from SMN to BLM (e.g. it is a recognizably different *playstyle*). DRG adds the jumps, but it is still fundamentally LNC. WAR adds the Wrath stuff, but it plays *exactly* like MRD 90% of the time. PLD plays exactly like GLA. All of the jobs (with the exception of SCH because it's a completely different role that uses a completely different suite of abilities) are simply a small set of bonus conditional options (or abilities that are used but do not interfere with the existing playstyle). If you honestly think that THF can coexist with NIN as a ROG job, come up with some way for it to coexist rather than co-opt it.

It is the way how you choose the Abilities and how the actual Job can make use of the Class Skills. Let's just assume that there will be THF beside NIN, they both don't have to share the same Cross-Class Abilities and also do not have to share the same Base-Stats. They also could be a different role, without being both DPS or both can be DPS, but one can be supporter and the other "Debuffer". IT is quite possible, so i don't see a Problem here.

I am not saying Thief is coming, or should come.. tbh i do not really care, but to say it is impossible is just not true.

[Kitru]

5 you want?

Yes, but you seem to have missed where I said "useful abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken".

1) Steal

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 500

Can steal an Item, which would drop from the Treasure Chest, after defeating it. Chance of Success: 10%

You're providing an explicit economic advantage to the class and providing absolutely nothing for it's *real* job: killing stuff. Plus, the 8 minute CD and 500 TP cost basically make it unusable.

2) Treasure Hunter

Cast Instant, Recast 720, TP Cost 250

Improves the successrate of Steal by 15%, lowers your defense by 15% in exchange.

Another case of a 12 minute CD with a crazy high TP cost so that it's effectively unusable and, in fact, this is even worse design because you're just providing a longer term ability that exists purely to augment an existing single purpose ability. You're separating a single ability into 2 because you can't think of anything else.

3) Sneak Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 180, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from behind, with PT member between you and the Target.

Increases your Atk by 15% if successfull, STR of the PT Member by 5%, lowers your defense by 15% if failed. Successrate: 70%

3 min CD with incredibly limiting requirements. This isn't FFXI where people just stand around doing nothing for long periods of time waiting for tp so that they can actually attack. People actually *move* in FFXIV.

4) Trick Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 360, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from flank, with PT member between you and the Target.

lowers your Atk by 15% if successfull, lowers Atk of the PT Member by 5%, increases Steal by 5% and next SA by 30%.

Similarly limiting, even longer CD so that that there's even less reason to use it, plus the only value in it is increasing the value of an ability on a 3 min CD and actually penalizes your ally for "helping" you.

5) Gil Toss

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 200

Does throw a random number of Gil out of the PT total pool ( max 50k ) at the Enemy and in exchange can incease the Droprate of rare Items. In example Mounts.

I have no idea how you can *imagine* this to be anything resembling a balanced ability. This would make it so that THF is effectively *required* for running absolutely anything because you're having it modify drop rates.

Lol.. i made those up in like what? 2 Minutes? The 5 Job Abilities can change the Class and its gameplayA LOT.

I'm curious how exactly an 8 min CD with a 12 min "buff" to it, a 3 min extremely restricted CD with a 6 minute extremely limited buff, and a ridiculously broken 8 min CD that doesn't affect your combat capabilities in the *least* affect gameplay. You're acting as if *Hallowed Ground* fundamentally changes how PLD plays compared to GLA (here's a hint: it doesn't mainly because it's on a 7 minute CD). You couldn't even come up with abilities that fulfilled the two qualifications I put up there: they needed to actually be *useful* without being broken as hell (and, yes, providing one class/job with explicit loot advantages/modification capabilities is *broken as hell*).

With those abilities, THF would *still* be using all of the same attacks as ROG, which means that it would still share almost everything it does with NIN. You didn't do jack shit to prove me wrong. Hell, you actually proved me *correct*.

Also, requiring you to attack through your allies is just stupid as hell. Seriously, FFXI was an absolutely horribly designed game. Stop trying to mimic it.

I'm going to sit here waiting for you to not completely fumble it when you try again. If you keep trying to have THF be based around gaining more loots, the THF you're aiming for isn't a DoW class: it's a DoL.