NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Lemuria]

Rogue is a class. It will only be played up until level 30. I would like to keep playing a Thief job beyond level 30.

Do you read job as class?

Archer is a class. It will only be played up until level 30. Then you become a Bard... which is basically an Archer that sings. Why do people fail basic comprehension in this sense? Out of ALL the classes we have, there isn't a single one which drastically changes at level 30+, not even Summoner / Scholar. You have access to ALL of your class abilities with the addition of new ones, so you'll still be a 'thief', but in ninja garb.

People put way too much emphasis on a mere name. Seriously. I can't tell if some of you are trolling or just plain stupid.

[Nalien]

Yeah, I love your idea with the Chemist (though I'd keep it called Chemist as that sounds nice), but people really wanted their Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Treasure Hunter, Flee (we have Flee already, it's called Sprint, and it's faster than Swiftsong and almost as fast as a mount) Thieves with their iconic green vest-and-tubetop AF. And they will keep demanding it despite the fact that Yoshida has been trying to avoid direct inspirations from XI this entire time. Not even Tanaka wanted to draw that heavily from XI.

The thing is, and I'm sure I've posted this before, one of the main complaints XIV 1.0 got was a lack of Final Fantasy Jobs. So much so that that was one of the first things Yoshida addressed. The classic Final Fantasy Jobs are important to the fans, Yoshida has admitted that much, and implemented them in a fairly nonsensical way, keeping Classes and making them almost completely redundant post-30. What he is now doing with Thief seems to contradict all that, one of the most iconic Jobs either ruled out completely, or just renamed and tossed aside at Lv30? Isn't that exactly what a large amount of people disliked about the Class system in 1.0? We didn't get White Mage and Black Mage then, we got Thaumaturge and Conjurer. A lot of people liked the openness of that system, but a lot more were complaining that Final Fantasy XIV didn't have Final Fantasy Jobs.

I don't even care about Thief, I wanted Ninja and I've got it, I just find it extremely odd that after going out of his way to implement classic Jobs into XIV, Yoshida is now forsaking one of the most classic Jobs. It's not even that Thief wont work in XIV, it will, it just requires a bit of imagination and taking some liberty with the Job itself (See: Bard).

[Gilraen]

The thing is... tossed aside at Lv30?

And then there's this. Not one class is tossed aside at level 30. Using your Bard example, without the archer's foundation the Bard would just be three songs, a song buff and an AoE attack. Classes aren't tossed aside, they are buffed by the equipping of the Job stones because that's all the Jobs are, special equipment that grant enhanced stats and expanded abilities at the cost of the class' multi-classing. Ninja will be no different, it's nothing without rogue providing a foundation.

[TheRogueX]

A shame that dual wield cant exist in this game, would have been fun watching offtank paladins dual wielding and going nuts on a boss. But this does look fun!

What's sad is that the Gladiator class description talks about Gladiators who forgo a shield and fight only with a single sword... but, um, why would you do that? Is that a hint at a possible divergent path in the future?

[Nalien]

And then there's this. Not one class is tossed aside at level 30. Using your Bard example, without the archer's foundation the Bard would just be three songs, a song buff and an AoE attack. Classes aren't tossed aside, they are buffed by the equipping of the Job stones because that's all the Jobs are, special equipment that grant enhanced stats and expanded abilities at the cost of the class' multi-classing. Ninja will be no different, it's nothing without rogue providing a foundation.

How often do you see Archers in instances after 30? What about Gladiators, or Lancers? PvP is literally the only place Classes can shine, and even then that's just Gladiator and Marauder.

Classes may as well be their Jobs once you hit 30, Rouge and Ninja should be no different. Rouge could be a proxy for Thief, but if you're playing Ninja, you certainly aren't playing Thief. Last I checked Thief didn't do crazy hand signs and spit ice, at least.

So, Thief either is Rouge, and it's gone after 30, or Thief is a Job at some point. For it not to happen at all just contradicts the implementation of Jobs at all.

[Monsalvato]

[cut]
Ninja will be no different, it's nothing without rogue providing a foundation.

I agree with this, but I See Nalien's point too.
What you're talking off Gilraen doesn't require the duality of class + job.
You could achieve the same results if classes didn't exist and everything was imbued into jobs.

Yoshi-P had 2 roads in front of him:
1) Completely reform class actions and change their names into more iconic ones (Gladiator into Paladin etc)
2) Keep classes, add jobs as "variations" and make so both Classes and Jobs have a purpose and players will switch to one or another accordingly.

He chose option 2, but in the end he failed to make class still useful.
Atm they're just a remnant of an old game (Tanaka's original FFXIV) and feel a bit out of place into the current game (except for the story, loved it for all classes and jobs)


So yes, I understand what you're saying and I agree, but Nalien's got a point too.

[Rachoco]

rikku? uve got to be joking with me.... , a good example of thief would be Tantalus Theater Troupe.

[Nalien]

rikku? uve got to be joking with me.... , a good example of thief would be Tantalus Theater Troupe.

Sorry, but Zidane is a terrible example of a Thief, for a MMO at least. Single player he is great.

Rikku on the other hand, works perfectly (primarily because she combined several Jobs). You can put Thief like that into a MMO fairly easily;

Firstly, the Job gets access to a special inventory of reagents, which can be filled up with Steal and regular drops, each mob would have up to four possible reagents, ranging from common to very rare.
JA1: Use, uses a reagent.
JA2: Steal, steals a reagent from the target.
JA3: Treasure Hunt, Mercy Stroke, but increase drop rate if used as killing blow, rather than HP restore.
JA4: Mug, Steal with damage modifier, and lets you obtain reagents more often. Or Despoil, which inflicts damage/status effects based on a reagent while stealing another.
JA5: Mix, mixes two reagents for improved effects.

That concept took me no time at all to come up with, and like that it certainly wouldn't work, but if someone puts some serious thought into it and balances it, it's certainly possible. It really wouldn't be much different to Bard in how useful the Job abilities are for the most part. You'd always be using three of them in order to keep your supply up though, and when you get to a boss you can use them fairly often and mix them for better effects, but for the most part you'd be relying on Rouge skills; just like Bard mostly relies on Archer skills.

[Dijana]

After you hit level 30 you can't play Rogue, do you understand that people want to play Thief beyond level 30 with Thief skills like treasure hunter, steal, mug, trick and sneak attack like attacks as well? It isn't just a renamed Thief because it hasn't shown us that it can steal and I dont think it will from the video. Why do you have a problem with Thief being added in the game when it will not harm or effect anyone else's play style?

Alright, the first part of that. Their description on the lodestone says

Lurking in the shadows, adhering to no laws but their own, they punish the wicked, pilfering their ill-gotten gains and delivering them to the downtrodden masses.

So, sounds like they do steal. It's a thief, and you continue to play it after 30, just with a different name again. Being a job only changes the name and 5 abilities. You dont know that rogue wont have treasure hunter, steal, mug and all that, I'd put it more likely that it will since Yoshi himself said rogue is thief, and being a dps job, I very much doubt that they would give thief most of the abilities you say you want because they wouldnt affect DPS. Heck, I dont think treasure hunter and steal would even have barely any impact on the game at all unless you just want trash to sell for a few gil to npcs, since all the meaningful items come from chests for defeating a boss, not the boss itself, and are all guaranteed an item.

Secondly, you ask why do I have a problem with it being added to the game? I've said it TWICE now. While I would have preferred the thought of thief over ninja, since Im really not big into the ninja theme, we dont NEED it to have a second job that is the same role. Yes, it would harm and affect others play styles, because hey look, even more dps jobs we dont need. I said having a different role- tank or healer, would be far more beneficial for everyone. DPS queues are already insane, and there are never enough tanks or healers. Up til now, its sounded like we will only ever get 2 jobs per class (eventually). Maybe in the future there will be more, but so far that has never been stated. IF there is no limit to the amount of jobs that can come from a class then I dont care if thief is added someday, but AFTER tanks and healers are sorted out please.

I can understand having a job you really love and want added to the game. Maybe Im biased because I was never that big a fan of thief (I didn't dislike it, just never bothered to really play it) but I've always loved dancer and would love to see that come off rogue as well, but if they added something of the same role, then I was confronted with the question of 'we can add your favourite job which is exactly the same as the one already existing aside from 5 abilities or something with an entirely different role altogether' I would ask for the different one.

Edit: Also, because you keep insisting you dont play a class past 30. Yes. You do.

You continue to gain EXP for the CLASS, you never gain lvls in the JOB.

You continue to get new skills for the CLASS, more skills in the 30-50 range than the JOB.

The only difference is the 5 job specific abilities in place of 5 extra cross class abilities, a stat boost and a new name. Lorewise, they're something else, though they are still considered as remaining part of their class's guild, they've just extended their knowledge to advanced arts. You say you want to continue to PLAY after lvl 30, well, good news! You've been able to do that all along!

[Monsalvato]

If "abundance of DPS roles" is the issue here (and I agree it's a valid concern), it's gonna be a problem wether these "DPS in abundance" come from additional classes or from multiple jobs within the same class. The result is the same.
I think they might have to consider pulling away from the oversimplified trinity system that Yoshi-P adopted (Healer, Tank, DD) and try to move to a more complex model which also include support or hybrid jobs.
Support jobs actually would be out of place in a game like FFXIV, but hybrid (with more emphasis on the "support" at the cost of reducing their damage output) is something doable.

Many MMOs (WoW and FFXIV itself) moved away from very complex implementations of the trinity system (it's easier for them to balance with an oversimplified one), but personally I'd love to see a change in this direction, in the future. More than "I'd like it" I think it's going to become a "necessity" the more new classes/jobs they're going to add.