Men in Dresses

[Nuinn]

In wow there are many crafted dresses including a wedding dress that both male and females can use, there are tons of them and nope they are not robes, kilts ect.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Categoryresses there is no gender lock for these dresses. No one complained about them and many have been around since 2004.

Very aware of that but I don't really know what to say as there's tons of stuff that's been done in other games and MMOs which doesn't mean we'll get to see them in ARR.

As a side note: If devs were to give us clothes in general that aren't gender locked (Lightning/Snow outfits, Valentione etc.) and especially dresses, I'd appreciate if they were at the very least flattering to the male physique.

[Shioban]

Male characters in WoW can wear the Lovely Dress, which is decidedly "feminine" in design.

I honestly don't recall being able to wear that for all the years I played, always thought it was a suit.
Colour me wrong on that I guess.



If you find any other examples, do let me know!
I was actually googling around to see if I could find any Asian MMO's that did this, no luck so far. (Which would be key to the argument here)



I still think that the evidence so far shows that they're very much on the brand of separating items through gender.
(Swimsuits, Guardian Corps/Bohemians, Yukata's) all of which were gender specific and locked items.

Which is why I very much diffuted when you said "I think they'll add it, you're totally wrong!"

I have a male miqo'te who requires a dress.

Make it happen, don't listen to the homophobic and transphobic bigots who can't stand things not fitting into their accepted social norms. I require a pretty dress for my miqo'te. (So that I can then dye it black and be a dark force of chaos and destruction)

Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.
It's extremely rude to say "Well you're just homo/trans-phobic". If it makes other people feel un-easy or un-comfortable then YOU as another human being someone who also expects mutual respect and equality should consider this factor. It's not all about YOU.

Stop trying to exacerbate this point.

Sadly social norms are what most developers will go for, it's not a popular opinion among the trans-gendered crowd I'm very sure, but I can see their stance on this being along the same as their stance on Gay Marriage in the game.

Naoki Yoshida himself said this; "This is a controversial subject, things like this have to be approached carefully as a company, the decision will come from the development team after we've discussed it enough."

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

I have a male miqo'te who requires a dress.

Make it happen, don't listen to the homophobic and transphobic bigots who can't stand things not fitting into their accepted social norms. I require a pretty dress for my miqo'te. (So that I can then dye it black and be a dark force of chaos and destruction)

[Shadowzanon]

Very aware of that but I don't really know what to say as there's tons of stuff that's been done in other games and MMOs which doesn't mean we'll get to see them in ARR.

As a side note: If devs were to give us clothes in general that aren't gender locked (Lightning/Snow outfits, Valentione etc.) and especially dresses, I'd appreciate if they were at the very least flattering to the male physique.

I would agree. Now in wow nothing was funnier than watching a huge tauren pass by in a weddings dress. It was obviously allowed for fun and well in game people enjoyed them.

[SpookyGhost]

Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.

It does, however, say that they're not only incredibly close minded but also very uncomfortable with their sexuality. They also think the world revolves around them and that people should conform to whatever their idea of a "man" and a "woman" is. A burly man with a beard in a dress would be perfectly fine to anyone who isn't insecure - that's their decision, that's how they feel comfortable. A lot of SE's decisions for FF14/FF11 were based on their core audience, the Japanese market - that's why, if marriage is implemented, we probably won't see gay marriage. That doesn't mean it's okay for them to do that or that Japanese customs are supposed to be completely okay with the Western world because "they're from a different place!!". While we won't see dresses for men (most likely) or gay marriage (most likely), that doesn't mean it's fine to critique people for dressing differently. Is that dress really affecting your life in any way? Is it doing ANYTHING more than making you uncomfortable because you're insecure about your sexuality? No, it's really not. Girls wear binders and dress in suits designed for men - is THAT not okay? If not, why not? How is it affecting you? What is it doing to YOU that makes you so uncomfortable?

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.
It's extremely rude to say "Well you're just homo/trans-phobic". If it makes other people feel un-easy or un-comfortable then YOU as another human being someone who also expects mutual respect and equality should consider this factor. It's not all about YOU.

Stop trying to exacerbate this point.

Sadly social norms are what most developers will go for, it's not a popular opinion among the trans-gendered crowd I'm very sure, but I can see their stance on this being along the same as their stance on Gay Marriage in the game.

Naoki Yoshida himself said this; "This is a controversial subject, things like this have to be approached carefully as a company, the decision will come from the development team after we've discussed it enough."

Sorry, but the only reason I see for anyone to be uncomfortable with men being in dresses is they have internalized transphobic/homophobic societal norms. There is literally NOTHING wrong with men wearing dresses or "women's clothes", just as there is NOTHING wrong with women wearing "men's clothes". Why do people not make a big deal about one but get up in arms about the other? Internalized bigotry. Whether you realize it or not, that's what it is. There is NO reason people should be uncomfortable with it unless they were raised in an oppressive and backwards cultural or societal environment which said "no, these things aren't natural and normal".

It's rude to say someone's a bigot? It's also rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way, though honestly I don't feel bad about being "rude" to people with internalized bigotry. They certainly don't feel bad being rude to people just trying to express themselves how they see fit. If anything, THEY'RE the ones making it "all about them", as you tried to say.

[Nuinn]

I have a male miqo'te who requires a dress.

Make it happen, don't listen to the homophobic and transphobic bigots who can't stand things not fitting into their accepted social norms. I require a pretty dress for my miqo'te. (So that I can then dye it black and be a dark force of chaos and destruction)

How about they stop listening to the people who only read what they want to read, as opposed to what is written?

P.S. Comments like yours will only make the whole thing more controversial than it is which might add to the devs' insecurity, if you keep swinging words like "homophobic" or "bigoted" around like that. You're welcome.

I would agree. Now in wow nothing was funnier than watching a huge tauren pass by in a weddings dress. It was obviously allowed for fun and well in game people enjoyed them.

That's why I want the same for male Roes (only prettier) I still think they're not going to give us dresses for boys. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong by the devs.

[Mychael]

It's rude to say someone's a bigot? It's also rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way, though honestly I don't feel bad about being "rude" to people with internalized bigotry. They certainly don't feel bad being rude to people just trying to express themselves how they see fit. If anything, THEY'RE the ones making it "all about them", as you tried to say.

If I were in drag, I wouldn't walk into the face of someone who's clearly uncomfortable with my dress and criticize their opinions. While it's true that they may be closed-minded or even a little insecure, that's more a product of their upbringing and cultural norms--hardly things in their sphere of influence. It's no more rude to say "I'm uncomfortable with XXX" than it is to be comfortable with it.

You're absolutely right that they have internalized prejudices and trans-/homophobic values. Again, unless you want to blame them for every life event that's shaped their personality--that's your right, I guess...

My point is, you're not helping the argument by preaching condescendingly to all of the anti-dress folks as if they were insensitive and/or clueless. They're not stating their opinions to offend you.

[Merle]

rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way,

So... are you telling me that everyone who disagrees with you is "rude"?. Since your opinion is making me feel uncomfortable, does that means you're "rude"? I'm not homophobic/bigoted/whatever and STILL i don't feel comfortable with males wearing dresses because "it doesn't seem natural". Even if you disagree with Shioban, he said really good points.

By the way, finally someone talked about "Gay marriage". If Naoki Yoshida thinks thats controversial (and i guess gay marriage is more accepted/natural nowadays), i'm pretty sure this topic will be approached the same way

(I know i may look hypocrit since i'm a guy and i'm playing as a female character)

[Greed]

Calm down.

Some people pointed out the reason why the developers wouldn't add it, other simply expressed that they didn't want it.
They have JUST as much right to express that they don't want it, as much as you do in requesting it.

shhhh, stop trying to use logic
(just remember what happened in beta phase 1,2,3,4)